Wednesday, November 7, 2007
Last updated November 9, 2007 9:41 a.m. PT
Proposition 1 supporters
Scott Eklund / P-I
Proposition 1 supporters Joe Fain, left; Jon Scholes, deputy campaign manager for the measure; King County Councilman Larry Phillips; Steve Mullan, president of the Washington Roundtable; and King County Councilman Pete von Reichbauer watch returns Tuesday at the Westin Hotel in Seattle.
Proposition 1: Voters hit the brakes
Most expensive proposal in history losing in 3 counties
By LARRY LANGE
P-I REPORTER
(Editor's Note: This story has been changed since it was first published. Sound Transit proposed in a failed ballot measure to build 50 more miles of light rail over 20 years. The earlier version of the story misstated the construction time period.)
Voters in the central Puget Sound counties were rejecting the biggest transportation tax proposal in state history, one designed to unite transit and highway advocates to improve regional traffic congestion.
Tuesday night, it appeared that King, Pierce and Snohomish county voters were saying no to the measure, which combined a $30.8 billion Sound Transit proposal to add 50 miles of light rail line over 20 years and a $16.4 billion plan to build 186 miles of new lanes and ramps in the three counties.
The transportation ballot results appeared to follow a theme that voters were watching their pocketbooks during this election cycle. They rejected the proposed transportation taxes, approved a measure making it harder to enact new state taxes, voted to retain "super-majority" approval for local school levies and strongly approved a law that would penalize insurance companies that don't pay legitimate claims.
If Proposition 1, the roads and transit measure fails, King County Councilwoman Julia Patterson, a proponent, hopes that regional leaders will convene again to consider submitting another package of improvements. "We must do that," she said, "because the problem still exists."
Backers weren't conceding defeat Tuesday night. But Shawn Bunney, a Pierce County councilman and chairman of the Regional Transportation Investment District, which drew up the road portion of the measure, said he'd be "fidgeting" while waiting for final results.
Aaron Toso, a spokesman for the Yes on Roads & Transit Campaign, said proponents were surprised at the early returns, but were not conceding defeat.
"A lot of people were undecided and waited until the very end to vote," Toso said. "I think we have to be cautious about calling it; we're hoping some things can turn around in our favor."
Proposition 1 opponents were in a more celebratory mood. King County Executive Ron Sims, an opponent, said he was feeling optimistic, even though it was too early to declare victory.
Leaders "are going to hear from the public about what they really want. This isn't the first time the issue has failed," he said.
The vote came after the most expensive transportation-issue efforts in nine years; opposing campaigns raised and spent nearly $5 million trying to influence voters.
Proposition 1 would impose a six-tenths of a percent sales tax and an eight-tenths of a percent tax on car licenses in the urban areas of the three counties, on top of current sales and license levies. If passed, it would raise the sales tax in Seattle to 9.4 percent.
With the measure failing, the Legislature likely will act on its own on financing to replace the Evergreen Point Bridge, said Sen. Mary Margaret Haugen, D-Camano Island and chairwoman of the Senate Transportation Committee.
With the bridge aging and considered structurally vulnerable, the Legislature will likely consider a package using state gas taxes, federal money and tolls that it enacts on its own.
"It has to be done," Haugen said. "We can't afford to have a situation like we had in Minnesota," a reference to the urban bridge collapse in August.
Seattle resident Seung Yi voted for the measure at his polling place near Green Lake. "It's not a really hard vote, seeing how hard (commuting) has gotten. It's only going to get worse,." he said.
Some voters agonized over the ballot measure because of its length and complications. But Amy Larson, a teacher who lives in Seattle and commutes to her job on the Eastside, voted no after a lot of soul-searching.
"I want to see how the Sea-Tac light rail (segment) goes before we put up 50 more miles of it," she said.
Detailed construction schedules have not been determined, though the road projects would be completed in 20 years and the light rail extensions in 30 years.
Haugen said she doubts that regional leaders will attempt another transportation-tax package, given the other anti-tax votes Tuesday.
Others, however, spoke of attempting another proposal, which counties can still do. Mike O'Brien, chairman of the Northwest Chapter of the Sierra Club who opposed the transportation measure, said the region still needs a package that provides more transit options.
"We still care significantly about global warming," he said.
County Councilwoman Patterson said it wasn't clear to her why voters said no. She worried about the supportive coalition breaking apart, with roads factions and transit factions blaming each other. "We need to do an in-depth analysis of why."
Ron Sims congratulates Mike O'Brien
Zoom Karen Ducey / P-I
King County Executive Ron Sims, left, congratulates Mike O'Brien, president of the Northwest Chapter of the Sierra Club, at a gathering Tuesday night of opponents at Piecora's Pizza and Pasta in Seattle.
Whatever the outcome, the Regional Transportation Investment District, which developed the highway project list, will meet at 7 p.m. Thursday to discuss its next move. The district was set up to finance the highway projects, though it wouldn't own them. Among the topics when it meets in King County Council Chambers in Seattle will be the next steps, which could include deciding how to handle project construction contracts if voters approve the measure.
"What we consistently hear from our members is that the status quo simply does not work any more for them as business leaders or as residents of the Puget Sound region," said Steve Leahy, president and chief executive officer of the Greater Seattle Chamber of Commerce.
The ballot measure was "a comprehensive, balanced approach, and with it, we can create a multimodal transportation system that works for our region."
The measure was supported by major businesses, organized labor and most environmental groups, who liked the proposal for an expanded light rail system that included extensions from downtown Seattle to Tacoma, Mill Creek and the Overlake area of Redmond. They also liked 30 miles of car pool-bus lanes that they said would speed up bus service, reduce the numbers of cars and cut pollution.
Seattle stood to get $323 million in regional money if the proposition passed, which would finance about 90 percent of the improvements to Mercer Street, the Spokane Street Viaduct and a new railroad overpass at South Lander Street, all designed to improve traffic flow if the Alaskan Way Viaduct is torn down and rebuilt.
State legislators mandated the joint roads-and-transit measure, hoping to end the historic tug of war between transit and highway advocates over which solutions better deal with congestion. They also were looking for new sources of project funding, convinced that gas tax revenue would drop as cars become more efficient and burn less fuel.
The proposal included money for replacing the Evergreen Point Bridge. But there was no public plan for where to find the $1.1 billion for the span if the measure failed.
And some critics noted that the package did not include money to replace the viaduct.
KEY QUESTIONS ABOUT PROPOSITION 1
If the measure is rejected, could a similar one appear on a future ballot?
There is no alternate ballot measure planned right now. The main question is whether supporters would try again with a similar measure, or if a measure separating the transit and road improvement portions of the measure could go to voters.
Are there alternative possibilities?
Some politicians are pushing for the two issues to remain part of one measure in any future, related measures. The Legislature would have to re-enact a bill to combine the two issues again on another ballot. The three counties involved in Proposition 1 also could form different districts and create new, less comprehensive ballot measures. The Regional Transportation District and Sound Transit also could offer separate plans to voters.
What would Proposition 1 cost me if it passed?
If you lived in an urbanized area of King, Pierce and Snohomish counties, you would pay 6 cents on a $10 purchase. That would pay for the rail and road portions of the measure, an increase of $150 a year per typical household. Also a car-tab tax of $80 for each $10,000 of vehicle value would go to roads.
What about the taxes I already pay for the Sound Transit bill passed in 1996?
Taxes already levied for Sound Transit -- 4 cents in sales tax on a $10 purchase and $30 for every $10,000 of value in car-tab tax (scheduled to end in 2028, when bonds are repaid) -- remain in effect regardless of the outcome.
What do you think?
#283313
Posted by Banedarama at 11/6/07 11:48 p.m.
My faith is restored, no open checkbook for the 3 stooges.
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#283315
Posted by jungleal at 11/6/07 11:52 p.m.
"Ding dong the witch is dead; which old witch, the RTID/ST2 wicked old witch.....". Please disband the evil agencies that brought forth today's ballot garbage. Let's get some road miles out of the 55+ cents per gallon of gas tax that we all pay in taxes. All politicos who supported Prop 1 are urged to board the Sonics charter flight to Oklahoma City. Meet at Boeing Field as the light rail to SeaTac is billions over budget and 3+ years behind schedule.
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#283318
Posted by blackjezzus at 11/6/07 11:59 p.m.
SO HAPPY RIGHT NOW!!!
ROCK ON PUGETOPOLITES!!! WE HAVE DEFEATED THE TRANSIT FASCISTS!!!
BRING ON THE GENERAL PURPOSE LANES AND COMPUTER-CONTROLLED ELECTRIC VEHICLES!
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#283328
Posted by D_P at 11/7/07 12:18 a.m.
This is a good day for Seattle and the State of Washington. No on the bloated transit proposition, no on easier school levies, and yes on a 2/3rds majority for tax increases. I guess this pretty much kills the theory that Washingtonians and Seattleites in particular will vote for any tax increase, eh? Add in the fact that we aren't going to add a racist drunk to the city council and things are starting to look up!
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#283330
Posted by odb at 11/7/07 12:24 a.m.
Way to go folks, voting NO on measures to increase transit and roadway improvements. Hey, maybe in another 20 years when the mistake made tonight is realized we'll be lucky and fewer improvments will only cost 5 times as much! Ever think of building something for your children? or their children? Sure, its a lot of tax money, but then again, we don't have a state income tax where most states get their money for improvments. Well done voters, rain or no rain, i'm betting tomorrow's commute will be frighteningly nasty, and as you sit in traffic, try to fight off the "shoulda, woulda, coulda" reflex.
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#283335
Posted by lowerwallfrd at 11/7/07 12:28 a.m.
I really wanted to vote for Prop 1, it just did too little for too much money, I had to vote no. I hope we have a similar and better planned bill next year. Light rail to Tacoma is stupid. I think Sound Transit is a nightmare waiting to happen. There are no additional funds that should be given to those pretenders.
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#283340
Posted by odb at 11/7/07 12:35 a.m.
I can't wait to hear Ron Sims "counter" proposal for transit...which will include hundreds of miles of biketrails which can only be riden 3 months a year due to our lovely Seattle weather. Also, to those who voted "no" because it doesn't help their commute directly, let me remind you that a disabled vehicle on 405 N, will jam up traffic on 405 N, 520 E, I-5 N and S...
Sure, Sound Transit doesn't have the best track record, but who else is there? How was Sound Transit supposed to determine that China would be come a world power in a matter of 10 years and double or even triple material costs. Maybe lets let the Sierra Club plan our transit plans for the future...which would include light rail only in urban areas and no new lane improvments to help the busses get through the nightmarish traffic that will start very soon!
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#283341
Posted by Burton38 at 11/7/07 12:35 a.m.
Didn't the wicked witch in the gov's mansion jack our gas prices up already to pay for this crap. I knew they would want more.
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#283348
Posted by VicinSea at 11/7/07 1:12 a.m.
Well done, Idiots! Every time a tax increase is offered to pay for making roads better, you all waffle! Who do you think is going to pay for roads? For trains? The problem is not going to go away and every time these issues get voted down the cost goes up. So great, you voted NO....your kids will face the same issue at 3 times the cost...nice job indeed!
I would really love to see a tax based on distance commuted....oh wait! we already have that! Enjoy the rising costs of fuel while you idle in traffic! Gas is expensive but even more so when you need it to sit in a traffic jam!
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#283350
Posted by River1 at 11/7/07 1:28 a.m.
I agree this should have been voted down, but this shows that one of the most liberal areas in the US will not pay higher taxes. This does not bode well for the massive taxes for a universal health care program or other government programs....People want them but when it comes down to paying a lot more out of ones paycheck even liberal tax and spend Seattle says "NO." Very interesting,
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#283351
Posted by DavidSpademan2 at 11/7/07 1:58 a.m.
Hooray! Just fix the roads with the money already allocated for roads instead of diverting them to other projects and pork. I've said this many times before. The funds we have now are being allocated for pork, and high priced low usage highway projects that aren't needed. Check out all the new Eastside on and off ramps costing millions of bucks that are hardly being used.
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#283352
Posted by diehardTRANSITadvocate at 11/7/07 2:00 a.m.
One thing is for certain, construction on the current project will continue. Once again, they started out too ambitious, and Ideologies on all sides got in the way. Sure they went overboard on Light Rail. Now a Liberal Area may have voted down a transit tax. Last year a Conservative Area of the country approved one, go figure. Salt Lake City is expanding TRAX. Denver is trying to find ways to shave some costs off of FastTracks, which overuns on the cost of construction materials is threatening, but they are not cutting Light Rail just because it is getting to cost more. They are avoiding tunnels wherever possible.
They will try again, but maybe they should wait until 2009. Also, this could put the Eastside Rail Line back in play. Although I have a problem with a demo at the current speed on the line, maybe it is worth a try.
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#283354
Posted by Seattle757 at 11/7/07 2:11 a.m.
The next time I hear someone complain about traffic here in Seattle I 'll just duck tape their mouth!
Do you idiots realize that everytime you vote no and delay funding for making the roads better and adding light rail, you are just throwing more money away by making construction and improvements more expensive!?!
We could have had a much more improved SR-520 bridge and have had transit for $275 million 30 yrs ago and you all voted no, now it $50 billion, what do you think it will cost in 2-3 yrs?
...and the Sierra Club?!?! I used to support that organization, do they really believe that by allowing congestion to grow and having more cars idleling in traffic you are helping our air quality and quality of life? What you are doing is wasting gas and spewing out more greenhouse gasses!
Adding more busses won't solve the problem, the bus shares the same road with all those cars, sorry to tell you, but a bus isn't Harry Potter's broomstick, it isn't going to fly over traffic.
I grew up in a city where the car rules and it's all about freeways and the city was very much anti-light rail, but once they saw what the light rail could do and they could fly past all the commuters stuck in traffic, communities that were very anti-rail started demanding them.
Light rail works, if it didn't then cities wouldn't be expanding their networks. Portland, San Diego, and Los Angeles come to mind when I see how fast they are building them because they do reduce traffic. All the major cities in the world have some sort of subway/light rail - from London, Berlin, New York, Chicago, San Francisco, Tokyo, D.C., Los Angeles, San Diego, and even Portland
We are not a little city, we are a major city that is growing because of it's job growth. We are becoming a more important part of the world's economy with our growing ports and major coporations based here. If you want tto balme them for our traffic problems go ahead and at the same time blame them for putting money in your pockets. It's time to stop pretending that we live on "Little House on the Prairie" and that we do live in a major city.
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#283355
Posted by diehardTRANSITadvocate at 11/7/07 2:33 a.m.
Also, one County did approve a rail measure tonight, and it was Kittitas County. At least the current returns show the measure to form a County Rail District is passing. Then again, no money is allocated. Now also, as I was hearing the initial returns on the radio on my way home, they mentioned that Crude Oil futures were trading at $98 per barrel in overseas trading, which might be a foreshadowing of what will happen when NYMEX opens later today. This is trading for January contracts. That may not bode well for gas prices then. Diesel Prices are already knocking on the door of $4.00 per gallon in some places.
(A little detail on the Kittitas Rail District is in the Yes on Prop 1 PDF on the AAW site)
http://www.allaboardwashington.org/cms/index.php?/content/rail_projects
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7082323.stm
http://www.co.kittitas.wa.us/auditor/results.asp
Now from what I have been able to find on the net. Kittitas Prop 1 was nothing fancy. Just to study getting some kind of Intercity Passenger Service restored. It was cut after the Empire Builder was restored to it's current routing via Stevens Pass when the North Coast Hiawatha was cut by the Carter Administration. Now there was one benefit to having a passenger train on this route that was paralleled by the nice Interstate Highway. May 18, 1980 was a good reason. Although Amtrak anulled almost every train out of Seattle that day, the run of the Empire BUilder that was still inbound continued to fight it's way through the volcanic ash at a snail's pace, and it was not just the ash, but it was also stopping to pick up stranded motorists.
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#283359
Posted by Proud Army Wife at 11/7/07 2:48 a.m.
Posted by Seattle757 at 11/7/07 2:11 a.m.
The next time I hear someone complain about traffic here in Seattle I 'll just duck tape their mouth!
Do you idiots realize that everytime you vote no and delay funding for making the roads better and adding light rail, you are just throwing more money away by making construction and improvements more expensive!?!
And do you realize that everyone has a constitutional right to vote whichever way they so choose? Don't call a voter an idiot for not agreeing with your point of view. As soon as the government in this state starts to allocate money the way they're supposed to instead of taxing us more to fund God knows what, I will vote against any tax increase. The gas tax that was voted in is supposed to be for transportation packages, and specifically marketed to do construction on the 520 bridge and the Viaduct, yet neither of those has happened either. Maybe you put your faith in this governor, but I definitely do not. She has misled the Washington voters one too many times for me. Where is that money going? It's being diverted to other funds that are lacking.
I also don't like the push for transit in a state where no one wants to use transit. If you remember, when I-5 was closed down to 1 lane, there weren't many more people who chose to use the transit. Instead, they just took different routes, and after the construction was over, they went right back to driving their own cars, so this package would have made zero difference anyway.
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#283363
Posted by diehardTRANSITadvocate at 11/7/07 3:25 a.m.
SOUNDER had a record day that first day of the I-5 closure. In fact, the extra rush drove a few regular passengers off. Apparently, unlike Los Angeles Metrolink, there were not enough staff on hand to show the first-timers how to use the Ticket Vending Machines. Also, Transit has made a remarkable turnaround since it's low point in 1972 when Seattle Transit was down to just 30 million annual riders. Last year it was 103 million riders, and Metro will beat that. Now some of the conditions are coming to push Metro to beat the all time record Seattle Transit held, with 130 million riders in 1994. There was something in short supply that year that drove people back to transit. It was gas rationing. Now Seattle Transit did not burn much gasoline and diesel, as most of the fleet was electric. Tires were a different story, though.
What a catch 22. Deny people the ability to make the choice on whether to use transit or not because their is no demand for transit because nobody wants to have it in place. Rail and buses work together in other cities, including to the North and South of us, and gradually, to the Northeast and Southeast of us. Interesting how in Calgary, Gasoline is at under $1 a liter, they are just south of the center of Canada's Oil Industry, but 500,000 a day ride Calgary Transit. Now exchange rates, and Liter to Gallon conversion puts that at $4 per gallon, but soon that will be no excuse.
Also, the Sierra Club is opposing transit all over the country. One is restoration of commuter rail on the Lackawanna Cutoff in New Jersey, but they are for the North-South Rail Link in Boston, a casualty of the Big-Dig that would have allowed the MBTA to more effectively utilize their commuter rail network. It is almost the same situation that keeps the NYMTA from having the Long Island RR serve Grand Central, and the Metro North RR serve Penn Station. Old rivalries among competing railroads.
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#283365
Posted by diehardTRANSITadvocate at 11/7/07 3:31 a.m.
Not to say that I meant all first timers could not work the TVMs. I had no problem my first time. Both here and in other cities. Actually, I take that back, I had no problem with the equipment ST uses. I had a little problem with what DC Metro uses, it is a different system, with entry and exit fares. The fares are based on distance, just like SOUNDER is now, but on DC Metro, there were turnstiles that when you entered, it recorded the station, and when you exit, it deducted the fare from the pre-paid card. After the first time the station agent(all Metro Stations seemed to be staffed) showed me how the first time, I had the hang of the system. LINK will be on the honor system, although I forget the fine for being caught on the train without a ticket.
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#283372
Posted by cj in seattle at 11/7/07 3:53 a.m.
Perhaps it would help if we had smaller $$ for more specific spending goals. I think the size of this and the fact that it was a multiple project package scared people off.
Both my self and my husband ended up voting for it even though it size of it made me think on it a while. I recognize the importance of the responsibility of one generation to those who come after.
I think though that if we could get a package for just mass transit that it would take off nicely with voter support. There has been so much corruption in government that the public has become jaded by it. They don't trust it anymore. Its important to public servants to recognize this.
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#283373
Posted by diehardTRANSITadvocate at 11/7/07 3:56 a.m.
Oh, another case of having an alternative ready. Look at LA last month. What if CalTrans had not got I-5 re-opened after that catastrophic accident in time for the Monday AM rush? Los Angeles Metrolink prepared an emergency schedule to try to be there to help. It conisted of extra cars on some trains, and 2 additional trains a day on the affected line.
http://www.railpac.org/2007/11/06/another-close-call-and-metrolink-comes-through-again/
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#283404
Posted by jungleal at 11/7/07 5:51 a.m.
Prop 1's flame out is worth getting up out of bed early to celebrate. Let's have the media bring to light every penny of gas tax hike spending. Bring back those "Your Nickel at Work" project signs, and how about some "Your Another 9.5 Cents at Work" signs and some "Your Original 23 Cents at Work" signs and a breakdown of where the 18.4 cents per gallon of federal gas tax is going. If the Alaskan Way Viaduct and 520 bridge are so fragile and dangerous, why are they not receiving more immediate gas tax money??
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#283435
Posted by rwb77 at 11/7/07 6:33 a.m.
For affordable light rail: build it like many other cities are at much less cost, at-grade, not elevated or tunneled. Build it on existing rights of way, like highways and abandoned railroads. The gold-plated Sound Transit version is great for contractors but bad for taxpayers. And for a route, how about a simple loop around the lake? Start at Southcenter, branching off from the current elevated line, go to Renton, follow the old railroad right of way north to Bothell, around the upper end of the lake to Northgate, then past Husky Stadium into downtown. Don't try a potential engineering nightmare with tracks across the lake; dedicate both floating bridges to Bus Rapid Transit; those are the two corridors where it would probably be most feasible.
For highways, spend dollars first on safety and maintenance (remember a certain bridge in Minneapolis this past summer .....). It is not WSDOT's responsiblity to enable people to commute 40 miles one way at 60 mph on the same road at the same time as 100,000 other people. That's what happens whenever new lanes are approved: developers come in with new housing and new strip malls and by the time the lane opens, it's as gridlocked as the older lanes.
But here's an idea to reduce congestion and it won't cost a taxpayer dime: live and work in the same town.
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#283440
Posted by jkdrummer at 11/7/07 6:41 a.m.
Hoooooray! No more dipping into our pockets for over bugeted pork! Sound Transit -- OINK OINK OINK!
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#283442
Posted by dpk at 11/7/07 6:51 a.m.
That $12 per month saved better feel pretty good sitting in your pocket while you wait in traffic. What a "win" for our region.
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#283443
Posted by Richard and Beverly at 11/7/07 6:51 a.m.
May be....maybe..at least some of our deaf legislators/leaders will recognize that is time to begin seriously addressing POPULATION GROWTH...
But they must begin recognizing that incentivizing it by passing many different measures that make immigrating here attractive seriously jeopardizes our real sustainability.
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#283452
Posted by Big Caddy at 11/7/07 7:03 a.m.
I think the message on Prop 1, Eyeman 690 and the School Super-majority should be taken loud and clear. Voters are 'tapped out' on excessive taxes. They don't trust government to prioritize spending. They want tax relief and they want accountability. They are not going to stand for a blank check system.
They were being asked to bet the farm for 50 years on a 'conceptual solution' that would be managed by an agency that has no direct accountability to the voters and had a proven track record of misrepresentations and failures. People are smarter than that.
Another proposal will come back. Take the messages that have been given. Come back with an incremental project that directly focuses on a specific corridor, that has a verifiable budget of reasonable cost and timeframe and an honest projection of congestion relief and I think you would get a different result.
And absolutely CLEAN HOUSE and get rid of all the existing bureaucratic hacks that devised this current plan and tried to ram it down our throats. If they are in anyway connected to the next plan, it may also be DOA from the start.
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#283468
Posted by smdmd at 11/7/07 7:25 a.m.
The supporters of Prop 1 will be back, they always are. They will be next year and with an expected Democratic sweep they will slide this bill or equivalent deep in the ballot somewhere. Mark my words.
The folks here online whining about its defeat are probably non homeowners attached to the government teet in some form or another.
Go Obama!
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#283473
Posted by SalmonjimV2 at 11/7/07 7:30 a.m.
Prop.1 was/is a scapegoat because our elected officials NEGLECTED to enforce Smart Growth policies,,,, Instead of charging taxpayers for roads, you need to go after developers so they can pass the cost on to new homeowners.
Too bad our elected officials are in denial about the congestion issue, you made your bed,,,,now you have to sit in traffic,,,, boo hoo, move closer or take a bus
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#283475
Posted by SleeplessInSeattle at 11/7/07 7:31 a.m.
Proposition 1 is NOT a comprehensive package. It is mainly an Eastside improvement project, with a small fragment thrown in for the rest of the area in an effort to gloss over what it really is. Is there anyone out there who is really dense enough to believe that light rail to Mercer Island and Bellevue addresses this area's major transportation problems and environmental concerns, much less does anything to repair the roads and bridges in most need of improvement?! We already voted in and pay an exhorbitant gas tax in this state for what was supposed to fund road/brige repair and improvement projects. At the time, 520 and the Alaskan Way Viaduct were specifically mentioned as projects that would be completed with that gas tax money. Senators Murray and Cantwell also got federal disaster money to help repair 520 and the Viaduct. Almost immediately after those two money sources came into fruition, our new governor began looking for ways to legally divert the Viaduct portion of those funds to 520. So, mark my words, 520 will be rebuilt whether Proposition 1 passes or not. Proposition 1 was just the boondoggle they were looking for to build the new 520. Now they'll just have to use the money that was already budgeted for it, plus impose tolls. Gee, what a concept. And, yes, I certainly was thinking of my children, and their children. . .when I voted no. They would be the next generation paying for this mess, and they too would have no money left to devote to projects which would actually improve the quality of life in this area.
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#283486
Posted by kht at 11/7/07 7:40 a.m.
It's simple ... it seems that NOTHING can be done by Gov't without a new tax package and people are sick of it finally.
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#283495
Posted by boogietime at 11/7/07 7:46 a.m.
This state needs an income tax.
The way attitudes are now, a major artery would have to become unusable (ie. closed) before a funding proposal like this would pass.
For example, if the viaduct falls anyone who bought property in West Seattle in the past few years would almost immediately upside-down on their mortgage as property values plummeted.
Same scenario for Seattle property if 520 goes down.
I think this is an example of where this state's quaint taxing and voting systems have failed to address reality.
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#283507
Posted by rwb77 at 11/7/07 7:58 a.m.
"I think the message on Prop 1, Eyeman 690 and the School Super-majority should be taken loud and clear. Voters are 'tapped out' on excessive taxes."
Likewise, voters in Thurston County trounced by a 2-1 margin a tax hike that was touted as crime prevention "for the kids". Another "tapped out" point is gas. Watching the news this morning, I saw some talk that we could easily reach $120 per barrel oil, translating to $4 gas in summer 2008. Even CNBC's host, who's typically pro-business to the hilt, said that was too high and would undoubtedly mean recession. Perhaps people are also looking at that and realizing that with more money going out of their pockets to fuel, it's time to stop the government gravy train.
"This state needs an income tax."
Why? We've got plenty of tax base and money; we need to ask what we're going about it. At the state level, for example, we can see what WSDOT is or isn't doing because its work is in plain view. Like all public works agencies, it operates more like a business than any other wing of government - it has a set product and schedule, and if it isn't met, lots of people see it and trust is lost. Compare that to most other agencies and you don't know what you're getting - what do Ecology and Natural Resources actually do? Do we need the big bureacracy that's sited down at L&I in Tumwater? And DSHS is the classic do-nothing-bureaucracy-run-amok. There's billions of tax dollars already available for whatever's needed.
But as I posted earlier, there's a much cheaper way people can deal with congestion - choose a residence and job that minimize commuting. I don't understand why people are willing to throw away hours of time and dollars of gas every day just because they have to work in A and live in B, especially with gas on its way to $4/gallon. What's the incentive, allure, benefit, or point to this lifestyple?
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#283512
Posted by lalapalouser at 11/7/07 8:06 a.m.
Prop 1 going down, good. We have plenty of tax base and money to spend, it's how we spend it. Too many liberal, giveaway programs.
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#283520
Posted by Ted Fleming at 11/7/07 8:13 a.m.
With oil rapidly approaching $100 per barrel (thanks GWB) there is not much need for more roads. We do, however, need to increase light rail for the future when gas will be a luxury, not a convenience. Hopefully someone with fiscal responsibility in mind can take control of Sound Transit and steer it in the right direction. Then, they will have my vote.
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#283534
Posted by Mud Baby at 11/7/07 8:23 a.m.
I voted no because of the road pork part of Prop 1. I don't need to be convinced that light rail works--I've lived in SF, Boston, NYC and Portland, so I know it works. Too bad we let the oil companies take over and convince cities to rip out our old trolly lines to make way for roads and cars. What's puzzling is why that didn't happen in Boston and San Francisco...
rwb77, I like your idea about building light rail around the lake, but given the level of buildout of expensive residential properties, where would you get the right-of-way? I also like your idea of living and working in the same town--what a concept!!
SalmonjimV2, you have exactly nailed an excellent point: because local governments have failed to use their authority under the Growth Management Act to charge developers for REGIONAL transportation improvements, we all have to sit in traffic. With the random sprawl we have around here, clear linkages between future light rail and future growth are unlikely because the growth cow is way too far out of the barn.
BTW odb, it is easily possible to bike here year around--you just have to wear layers of appropriate clothing topped off with a light rain-impervious layer and rubber boots.
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#283538
Posted by RationalThought at 11/7/07 8:25 a.m.
I'm canceling my membership in the Sierra Club.
Why they lobbied against 50 miles of electric light rail is beyond my comprehension. I hope the light rail portion of Prop. 1 comes back in the very near future, and that the Sierra Club bankrupts itself promoting the measure.
But they won't be doing it with my money anymore.
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#283539
Posted by g2000 at 11/7/07 8:26 a.m.
What I think everyone that voted yes fails to realize is that a majority of us are strapped for $ these days. We do not need another tax in 2008, that is not saying that we will not vote for an increase later but right now you are talking about possibly adding an additional $500+ in tax to the average seattle family? I know that may seem trivial to some but for those of us that are living check to check this is unacceptable at this time. Break this bill into smaller chuncks, fix the transit problem one piece at a time (this will also help against a mis management of $)and get it right.
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#283546
Posted by Centrist at 11/7/07 8:30 a.m.
With the 520 bridge aging and considered structurally vulnerable, the Legislature will likely consider a package using state gas taxes, federal money and tolls that it enacts on its own.
"It has to be done," Haugen said. "We can't afford to have a situation like we had in Minnesota," a reference to the urban bridge collapse in August.
I'm all for safe bridges.
BUT a huge portion of 520 funding is for landscaped lids, resulting in needing even more expensive fire suppression equipment.
Landscaped Lids make freeways LESS safe, not the other way around.
Let's come up with a state funding plan for NORMAL freeways without all the fluff.
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#283547
Posted by Rod_Handler at 11/7/07 8:33 a.m.
Our bridges are going to collapse in the next earthquake.
All you tax haters are greedy.
The deaths will be on your hands, you murderers.
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#283554
Posted by compound at 11/7/07 8:37 a.m.
Three cheers for state income tax! Put more money in the coffers so we can shore up the infrastructure. More and more people are moving to the area, and others are reproducing. We may feel the pinch in this generation, but let's make this region stellar for future generations. That means roads, bridges, mass transit bike lanes and sidewalks!
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#283557
Posted by Big Caddy at 11/7/07 8:40 a.m.
We also need to insist that CONGESTION RELIEF be put back in WSDOT's mission statemen. Enough of the idealogy-driven projects that do nothing to resolve the problem. Didn't Sonntag's audit show that they could reduce congestion by 30% if they actually made that the objective? Didn't our esteemed legislature actually REMOVE congestion relief from WSDOT's mission statement in a bill passed just this year?
Unfortunately, I doubt very much that the entrenched bureaucrats and legislators in this state will take the voter's message to heart. They will, instead, claim that teh voters are 'idiots' (look at the posts) huddle with their cronies and union supporters and try to come up with the next grandiose ruse to try to shove down our throats.
You know, when you factor the almost 5:1 ratio of campaign spending by the Pro Prop 1 forces compared to the Anti Prop 1 group, the message should be read even larger than the election numbers indicate.
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#283575
Posted by JennaF at 11/7/07 8:50 a.m.
It takes a respected and convincing spokesperson to lead the charge on a major regional vote such as Prop 1. It is hard to have credibility on the campaign trail, when the elected official speaking as the public figure for the campaign was wacko Julia Patterson from the King County Council. Patterson is a dim bulb who is a minor player in regional affairs. Next time the backers need to find someone with smarts and credibility to lead the charge--not another moon bat.
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#283577
Posted by fabfreddyfarkwater at 11/7/07 8:52 a.m.
for all those who are pro/yes you probably haven't lived here that long. There is a solid history of boondoggling with respect to the WASDOT, Gov, and Legislature! And Dino ain't gunna change a thing as he's part of the problem so please don't buy into his BS. (did you know he stole 200k from you to pay for security for the golf tourney in Sagally in 98?) We don't have no stinkin' money to pay for this. You want to self tax your vehicle at 80$ per? Do you still have your high paying job? Probably not as it's been shipped to the Far East! Even if you did you'd pay (read lose) more of your income for this boondoggle. We have to force the digbats in Olympia to fund these projects with the billions they already have. And understand this, the bridge in Minn. is a Interstate bridge funded and paid for with Fed funds. The Chunnel over there was paid for by the Gov'ts of Dingland and Fries, oops, I mean the US as we generate the revenue for the world by how hard we work! And here's another tidbit, America is broke as we have borrowed billions no trillions to pay for a war and other lazy nations wants. Just some post election rambling....
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#283582
Posted by Chill at 11/7/07 8:54 a.m.
Well Done people!! You will have lost of time to enjoy your savings as you sit in traffic. You're right; light rail doesn't work, as evidenced by cities like Boston, New York, San Francisco and even Portland.
All of you people who think this town was so much better in the 70s when downtown was on the verge of becoming a slum will have your wish! Let's be a more mediocre city in the future. Becoming a world class city might mean growth, and we fear growth, don't we?
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#283595
Posted by Chill at 11/7/07 9:02 a.m.
"What we consistently hear from our members is that the status quo simply does not work any more for them as business leaders or as residents of the Puget Sound region," said Steve Leahy, president and chief executive officer of the Greater Seattle Chamber of Commerce"
Hey, look on the bright side, when Boeing and other companies leave because we can't get our act together and provide the transportation infrastructure a world class city (like Chicago)requires, Boeing and other companies will leave and the problem will fix itself. Hooray!
Oh well, what do I care? I often bike or ride the bus to work, and the lack of mass transit will only increase Seattle property values in the long run. To those of you who have to use the freeways to get to work, enjoy!
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#283604
Posted by BH at 11/7/07 9:10 a.m.
From the story: What about the taxes I already pay for the Sound Transit bill passed in 1996? Taxes already levied for Sound Transit -- 4 cents in sales tax on a $10 purchase and $30 for every $10,000 of value in car-tab tax (scheduled to end in 2028, when bonds are repaid) -- remain in effect regardless of the outcome.
Incorrect. Read Sound Move – it mandates a tax rollback now.
The following are terms in the local enabling legislation the voters approved in 1996 (Resolution 75/Sound Move). They describe the process ST is required to follow because the proposition was not approved:
Should voter approval for a future phase capital program not be forthcoming, the RTA Board will initiate two steps to roll back the rate of sales tax collected by the RTA.
a. First, the RTA will first [sic] initiate an accelerated pay off schedule for any outstanding bonds. Second, the RTA will implement a tax rollback to a level necessary to pay the accelerated schedule for debt service on outstanding bonds, system operations and maintenance, fare integration, capital replacement, and agency cost.
b. Once all debt is retired, the RTA will implement a tax rollback to a level necessary to pay for system operations and maintenance, fare integration, capital replacement and agency administration.
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#283606
Posted by compound at 11/7/07 9:11 a.m.
Yes, we do fear growth. But it will continue to come! I hope a million more people move here. I am doing my part but advocating that friends and family to come on out. And believe me, it's working.
I don't feel a bit sorry for the folks who voted this down and will sit in traffic everyday for the next 15 years. I'll be living, working and playing in Seattle with all my transplanted friends and family
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#283607
Posted by rwb77 at 11/7/07 9:11 a.m.
Mud, other cities have minimized right-of-way costs by using existing corridors - streets, freeways, railroads, etc. Of course, there would be sections where new rights of way would be needed, and in a developed area, that would be pricey. But if you look at other light rail lines around the country, that's how they're doing it.
Sacramento southern extension - beside existing railroad
Sacramento east leg - on old railroad right of way
Houston southwest leg (just approved in October) - on existing streets
Phoenix (under construction) - primarilly on existing streets
Denver west leg - to be build on old railroad right of way
Another commonality in these designs is that, unlike Sound Transit, they're at-grade for the majority of the route, not elevated or in tunnels. That's a significant driver in construction costs.
And regarding WSDOT shifting to congestion relief as a primary goal, no DOT is going to relieve congestion for several reasons. (1) Latent demand - as soon as developers hear more lanes will be built, "Hey, more people can drive to our property, let's build more strip malls!" "Hey, more people can have 40-mile commutes, let's build more McMansion subdivisions." Drivers think "more lanes, maybe there's something in Kirkland worth going to". As soon as the lanes open, they're gridlocked. Traffic engineering is often like the chicken-and-egg routine: do we have more traffic because we have more roads, or do we have more roads because we have more traffic. (2) Where has a DOT actually relieved congestion for the long term? Houston, Atlanta, Phoenix, Los Angeles, etc. all have extensive freeway systems which have encourage sprawl and are frequently crowded during rush hour. Which major city has done something that has aleviated congestion which not inducing latent demand?
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#283613
Posted by glk23 at 11/7/07 9:13 a.m.
I don't see many of the usual suspects here this morning and the few who are do nothing but call people "stupid" and "idiots" if they voted against Prop 1.
Please remember, crow is best eaten when it is warm.
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#283618
Posted by rwb77 at 11/7/07 9:17 a.m.
I wonder how many of these votes were due to pocketbook issues - $3 and rising gas, food inflation, health care inflation, more money going to education every year without apparent positive results, voters fed up with the solution to every problem being more taxes, more programs, and more bureaucrats, etc.
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#283619
Posted by farmhand at 11/7/07 9:18 a.m.
It's population. I've got a better, less fiscally burdensome idea; free vasectomies at my house!
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#283631
Posted by Apostle at 11/7/07 9:25 a.m.
This was an overwhelming victory for NOtoProp1, especially considering that the Yes campaign out-spent the No campaign by about 5 to 1.
As expected, the idiots in charge of our area are now asking "what does this NO vote mean?" I will offer a few hints.
NO on Prop 1 means:
Do NOT increase the sales tax. It is already too high.
Do NOT extend light rail until the first segment between downtown and the airport opens and operates for a couple of years, so we can see if it actually relieves congestion on I-5 or not.
Do NOT build new highways or lanes until the infrastructure we have which is failing gets the necessary repair and maintenance (e.g. the 30 bridges in our area which are in very bad condition, and for which Prop 1 contained money for only one.)
These are three very obvious points that people who voted NO made. If our elected morons can't see that "message", they can always be unelected.
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#283640
Posted by CM21 at 11/7/07 9:34 a.m.
Whoo Hooo, Seattle voters are actually smart. Now if we can vote out councilmember's who are out of touch with what the voters want, we'll be set.
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#283642
Posted by claystation at 11/7/07 9:35 a.m.
How can Dallas, of all places, be more progressive than Seattle? They think of their future. We don't.
You all complain about how expensive this was going to be. None of this stuff is going to get any cheaper. You fools just voted MORE out of your pocket books.
Very short-sighted.
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#283643
Posted by Nebula36 at 11/7/07 9:37 a.m.
The people in this state - both left-wing and right-wing are a bunch of pinheads.
I love it how people complain about traffic, but they don't want to ride or build transit.
They complain about being "over-taxed" when in real terms we're only about 36th out of 50 states. Ingorance in action.
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#283646
Posted by artman51 at 11/7/07 9:39 a.m.
I really like the light rail line around Lake Washington concept. Better management would be nice and tolls on both floating bridges that cross the lake to bring in some extra cash. Putt putt.
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#283651
Posted by checkReality at 11/7/07 9:42 a.m.
County Councilwoman Patterson said it wasn't clear to her why voters said no. She worried about the supportive coalition breaking apart, with roads factions and transit factions blaming each other. "We need to do an in-depth analysis of why."
Maybe if you actually paid attention to the basics, you would know. I will save you some work. See these posts for starters.
#283452
#283473
#283475
Stick to the knitting. This can be done witout regressive tax increases. Take care of basic infrastructure first. Viaduct Surface/Transit option. 520 bridge. BRT expansion and finish ST1. Use a single agency to invoke emminent domain when necessary, and do not allow hostage taking. Get the job done, and you will get the support.
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#283653
Posted by coryt5000 at 11/7/07 9:43 a.m.
Where's Soul not Sold, and Marine Vet, and Love your Viaduct?
This hopefully means Sound Transit is on the ropes, this measure was defeated because of the Light Rail, not because of the roads improvements.
For everyone on here talking about how expensive it will be to build it in 40 years, So what! Light Rail should never be built in this region, people understand this and thats why Foward Thrust failed, Prop One Failed, and if they try to come up with another light rail movement in 40 years that will fail too!
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#283663
Posted by claystation at 11/7/07 9:48 a.m.
Light Rail should never be built in this region,
That's exactly what they said in Dallas when I lived there. Now the DART light rail lines are PACKED, they can't build them fast enough.
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#283665
Posted by artman51 at 11/7/07 9:50 a.m.
"Personally, I can't wait till gas hits $5 a gallon, so I can listen with glee while you selfish self-centered morons squeal your heads off."
Ha, after prince George starts the war with Iran five dollars will be a bargain.
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#283666
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 9:51 a.m.
"For everyone on here talking about how expensive it will be to build it in 40 years, So what! Light Rail should never be built in this region, people understand this and thats why Foward Thrust failed, Prop One Failed, and if they try to come up with another light rail movement in 40 years that will fail too!"
Guess what, moron -- we will BLOCK ANY attempt to build more roads!! You WILL be FORCED OUT OF your SUV, road piggy. And personally, I can't wait till gas hits $5.00 a gallon.
It's RAIL TRANSIT or NOTHING AT ALL. DEAL with that.
And after GM and Ford both go out of business or are bought and hacked up by the Chinese, maybe we'll finally see some common sense start filtering into design of the wasteful single-occupancy vehicles that clog our freeways and promise to clog them even further into the future.
By the way: GM just announced the second-largest loss in corporate history today. They're headed for the scrapyard. HOORAY!!!
GM posts huge $39 billion net loss
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21661794/
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#283670
Posted by glk23 at 11/7/07 9:54 a.m.
For some of you, here is a good reason why direct democracy doesn't work. I elect people to go to the legislature to make tough decisions about hard problems. If they do not make the decisions I like, I don't vote for them next time. This habit of sending all tough decisions to the voters gets us where we are now. We need politicians with the spine to make decisions instead of going with the ebb and flow of the voters.
The legislature should spend next session make and passing bills to fix transportation issues. If they pass and the govenor signs them, then that is the direction we go in. If the majority of the people do not like what is being done, kick those people out and put new ones in. It is called representational government and I prefer it over direct democracy.
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#283671
Posted by dlundgren at 11/7/07 9:54 a.m.
WE WANT, AND NEED, MORE GENERAL PURPOSE LANES. IT IS THAT SIMPLE.
Why don't our leaders understand this?
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#283675
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 9:56 a.m.
YOU DON'T NEED, AND YOU ARE NOT EVER GOING TO GET, ANY MORE GENERAL-PURPOSE LANES. IT IS THAT SIMPLE. WE WILL STOP YOU FROM EVER GETTING ANY MORE SUCH LANES.
Why don't you stupid taxpayers understand this?
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#283681
Posted by telemark at 11/7/07 9:57 a.m.
Good going you cheap b@st@rds.
Maybe we should put a Wallmart downtown now since it attracts your type...
Transit improvement will once again be put off for years.
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#283684
Posted by Cristofori at 11/7/07 9:59 a.m.
Yaaayyy! Prop 1 died! All our transportation problems are now solved. Boy we really showed those government types who's boss. Party Time!!!
morons
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#283690
Posted by LoveYourViaduct at 11/7/07 10:02 a.m.
+++ Posted by parfait4congress08 at 11/7/07 5:58 a.m.
I am running with NO CONTRIBUTIONS yo prove it can be done and show everyone we can have finance reform. I am different. Write me. Let's talk.
Judging by your ability to compromise, I rate you a couple pegs lower than Richard Pope. You are running with NO CLUE as to how the legislative process works.
Finance reform? How about transportation reform instead? That might be a slightly more relevant message.
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#283692
Posted by such complaining at 11/7/07 10:03 a.m.
They have enough of our money from Gas taxes and licensing fees...They cant even show us where our money is going now!!!!! Mabey if they stopped acting like they were trying to solve the problem and ACTUALLY LOOKED at the money they are already getting from us and worked a plan thy would be able to actually come to some sort of solution..Mabey they should look at privatizing mass transit. Lets get some competition out there and see what happens...Better service competetive rates...ON TIME.... there may be a good chance that more people would use mass trasnportation...the way it is set up now is a joke and is the main reason a lot of people I know or myself wont go near it... it is unreliable crowded smelly and loud.
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#283696
Posted by LoveYourViaduct at 11/7/07 10:08 a.m.
Proposition 1: Voters hit the brakes
Actually, they just drove off the 520 bridge into the lake.
Most expensive proposal in history losing in 3 counties
Leave it to the P-I to sell papers with sensational headlines. Business as usual at Seattle's daily tabloid.
Enjoy your commutes, Luddites, rail-haters and tax haters. You richly deserve every second of gridlock coming your way.
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#283697
Posted by UncommonSense at 11/7/07 10:08 a.m.
Gas price never goes down? Try again, Willy:
http://oceanworld.tamu.edu/resources/oceanography-book/Images/zFacts-Gasoline-Price.gif
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#283698
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 10:09 a.m.
Posted by such complaining at 11/7/07 10:03 a.m.
They have enough of our money from Gas taxes and licensing fees...
Hey stupid complainer, they DO NOT have "enough of your money from gas taxes and licensing fees" !!!! Gas taxes and licensing fees ARE FAR TOO LOW to be able to pay the tab for fixing even the viaduct (which ought to be demolished anyway), MUCH LESS anything else!
"Mabey they should look at privatizing mass transit. Lets get some competition out there and see what happens...Better service competetive rates...ON TIME.... there may be a good chance that more people would use mass trasnportation..."
Maybe you should get an effin' clue and try to find just ONE, even ONE successful example of privatized mass transit!! There ISN'T ANY.. we need to get the private sector OUT OF mass transity, all they do is EFF IT UP, JACK UP FEES to pay their rich benefactors and SCREW the people who NEED mass transit prices to ride kept low!!
There's a REASON WHY the State of Washington took over the ferry system in the 1950s from the stupid private sector, the private sector had its head up its butt and couldn't figure out that the more they raised prices to benefit their shareholders the more people STOPPED RIDING! That's why the State took it over, the private sector ASKED THEM TO INITIATE A GOVERNMENT TAKEOVER because the private sector was LOSING MONEY!
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#283700
Posted by SportsDepressed at 11/7/07 10:10 a.m.
Essentially my no vote was a vote of no confidence in our government to wisely plan and implement any kind of fix for our traffic mess.
Also VICINSEA says "Every time a tax increase is offered to pay for making roads better, you all waffle!"
Although I could be wrong this is the first time I can remember a tax increase being voted down for transit issues.
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#283701
Posted by Ted Fleming at 11/7/07 10:10 a.m.
I see that Pete Von Reichbauer was on the committee of this measure. This is the same Pete Von Reichbauer that said "whoa, hold on, we're going too fast" when Safeco Field was being built. He was just delaying the project needlessly while the costs soared.
After he left the Safeco Field project, the construction took off and was built rather quickly (in comparison to the Kingdome).
King County politicians have a history of procrastinating when it comes to spending money on worthwhile projects. Put the money in someone else's control and you will have my vote next time.
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#283702
Posted by hawk5000 at 11/7/07 10:10 a.m.
Rod_Handler, don’t be a moron!
Telling people that voted no on prop 1 that they are murderers shows you have about as much class as the scum from Westboro Baptist Church. You know, the ones that picket soldier funerals with signs that say “Thank God For Dead Soldiers”
This was the wrong plan at the wrong time. A blank check with no responsible budget, no accountability, and no history of success.
Spewing hate solves nothing but it does put you in some grate company with the rest of the nut jobs in the world.
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#283703
Posted by rorbua57 at 11/7/07 10:11 a.m.
The smug, left wing, social engineers certainly seem to have a stick up their collective asses this morning. Using mass transit does not work for me and I will never use it. We need more roads and less preaching from the unconscionable, vitriolic mass transit types who want to dictate how I live my life. I never liked riding the bus when I was younger and I will not be forced to endure sitting next to some gross, lice infested, drug addict bum on my way to wherever I want to go whenever I want to do it. Keep your nasty left wing ideology to yourself and leave me alone.
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#283704
Posted by nullbull at 11/7/07 10:12 a.m.
Enjoy your commute, everyone, you've earned it!
Proposition 1: Voters hit the brakes
Voters in the central Puget Sound counties were rejecting the biggest transportation tax proposal in state history, one designed to unite transit and highway advocates to improve regional traffic congestion.
What do you think?
#283706
Posted by votingtaxpayer at 11/7/07 10:12 a.m.
"Well done, Idiots! Every time a tax increase is offered to pay for making roads better, you all waffle! Who do you think is going to pay for roads? For trains?"
Transportation is a basic function of government and something that is to be addressed using the existing tax base, not by raising taxes when something needs to be fixed/improved/built.
Other government projects need to be cut or scaled back and that includes health care and other social welfare programs. If someone wants those funded, go to the private sector and ask for funds, make contributions yourself, or do the best with what remains after basic infrastucture needs are met.
Another place funds can be found is the matching 10% 401(k) contribution that Sound Transit makes for its employees. There is nothing comparable to this in the private sector and there is no need for the public to fund an overly generous retirement plan for an organization that is requesting more taxes for projects when they are unable to complete the projects with which they have been tasked.
For these reasons, I voted NO.
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#283707
Posted by LoveYourViaduct at 11/7/07 10:13 a.m.
+++ Posted by dpk at 11/7/07 6:51 a.m.
That $12 per month saved better feel pretty good sitting in your pocket while you wait in traffic.
Not in the pocket for long. That represents the gas tax alone for one gallon per day. Currently, $12 buys about 4 gallons of gas - and shrinking. For some, that's one day's commute.
What a "win" for our region.
The best 'win' since February 1968. Be it ever so gridlocked, there's no place like home.
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#283712
Posted by nullbull at 11/7/07 10:15 a.m.
Oh wait, I'm a member of the MINORITY now, which, thanks to 960 means I can vote for representatives who will kill any tax hike to pay for roads! Sweet! I love being in the minority!
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#283713
Posted by such complaining at 11/7/07 10:15 a.m.
I think Wild Willy is surely insane..Fat chance dude cars are here to stay... your arguments filled with insults are not very convincing... Sounds like you need to go back into the woods and find a drum circle to hang with. And whats with the 'We will block any attempt to build more roads" are you part of some hippe vigilate group? are you planning on doing sit ins on the freeways to make sure the scary bulldozers don't show up? Dude, get real and realize light rail is a joke and people love their cars too much.
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#283717
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 10:17 a.m.
Posted by UncommonSense at 11/7/07 10:08 a.m.
Gas price never goes down? Try again, Willy:
ROTFLMFAO!!!!! What funny farm did that so-called "statistic" come from, and what were the people who "created" it smoking?
I can very clearly remember pumping gas at a service station in 1978.. the price of gas then was 55.9 cents a gallon.
Has the price of gas ever gone back down since then to that posted price?
I can very clearly remember pumping gas at a Mini-Mart in 1987.. the price of gas then was 93.9 cents a gallon.
Has the price of gas ever gone back down since then to that posted price?
I can very clearly remember pumping gas at a COSTCO in 2002.. the price of gas then was 127.9 cents a gallon.
Has the price of gas ever gone back down since then to that posted price?
I can very clearly remember pumping gas at a Sam's Club in 2004.. the price of gas then was 175.9 cents a gallon.
Has the price of gas ever gone back down since then to that posted price?
I rest my case.
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#283721
Posted by such complaining at 11/7/07 10:20 a.m.
Wild Willy here is so heated about this being turned down makes me wonder if he had something to gain from this. People like you are scary Willy..
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#283724
Posted by hawk5000 at 11/7/07 10:22 a.m.
I think light rail could work in this area but this was a lame light rail plan. I would like to see more thought put into light rail that follows I-405 and I-5.
Light rail that only goes to Bellevue does not make since to me. I don’t think all those people driving solo in there Escalades and Hummers are going to park and start taking the train. Try coming up with a plan that helps the entire region with responsible budgeting.
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#283726
Posted by SportsDepressed at 11/7/07 10:22 a.m.
For all of you light rail freaks ...check this out:Portlands experience with light rail
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/119405855163970.xml&coll=7
"Discussion of commuter protection began at a Gresham public safety summit in March, Bemis said. City statistics show that 84 percent of gang crimes, 40 percent of fights and 42 percent of drug crimes occur within a quarter-mile of the tracks."
"Not to mention vandalism, business burglaries and the fare inspections that aren't happening," he added.
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#283727
Posted by diehardTRANSITadvocate at 11/7/07 10:22 a.m.
To those that say Light Rail will not be built, are wrong. Have you driven on I-5 around the Boeing Access Road. There is a new bridge crossing it there, that is part of the Light Rail line. Now by the time a slimmed down measure hits the ballot, it will be operational. Interesting how people who just hate Light Rail refuse to even acknowledge what has been built here. Now I am trying to avoid name calling. Now there will probably be an effort to finish to the U-District. Now once they get it there, find ways to lower the cost, and get it to the right of way alongside Interstate 5 in as short distance as possible.
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#283731
Posted by LoveYourViaduct at 11/7/07 10:24 a.m.
+++ Posted by RationalThought at 11/7/07 8:25 a.m.
I'm canceling my membership in the Sierra Club.
Excuse me, I just fell out of my chair. You mean you've maintained your membership in spite of their antics this autumn? Well, better late than never.
Want to support a truly worthy environmental organization (you or other readers)? Here are a few suggestions:
Greenpeace
Audubon Society
Wilderness Society
World Wildlife Fund
Nature Conservancy
Trust for Public Lands
National Resources Defense Council
Earthjustice Legal Defense Fund
Friends of the Earth
Hood Canal Environmental Council
People for Puget Sound
Forest Guardians
Ocean Conservancy
... More suggestions on request. You too can help save the planet by NOT contributing to the self-absorbed, navel-gazing hypocrites that have highjacked John Muir's once proud organization.
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#283734
Posted by LoveYourViaduct at 11/7/07 10:28 a.m.
+++ Posted by rwb77 at 11/7/07 7:58 a.m.
I saw some talk that we could easily reach $120 per barrel oil, translating to $4 gas in summer 2008.
Hmmm, the once wild-eyed gasbags of the infotainment industry are losing steam. We could see both those numbers by year's end.
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#283741
Posted by Will in Seattle at 11/7/07 10:32 a.m.
As I told Julia Patterson (who I maxed out in contribs to when she first ran in both Primary and General) a few months ago, this will never fly.
ST needs to focus on what makes sense - the segment from Sea-Tac to Tacoma doesn't pass the sniff test and sure smells like a political payback grab bag.
RTID - dead. Good riddance. Instead, King County and maybe Snohomish County can have a critical bridge and roads REPAIR and replacement ballot issue - with MORE than 50 percent funding for the 520 bridge (we're not stupid) and LESS than 30 years taxes (we're not stupid).
For Pierce County - nothing. Your Pierce County Exec pulled a hissy fit for a highway that we don't need and stuffed the ST issue with that segment that makes no sense. Get real. Eat the bitter salt and ashes you deserve and look hard in the mirror. Come back when you're grown up.
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#283742
Posted by nullbull at 11/7/07 10:34 a.m.
The smug, left wing, social engineers certainly seem to have a stick up their collective asses this morning. Using mass transit does not work for me and I will never use it. We need more roads and less preaching from the unconscionable, vitriolic mass transit types who want to dictate how I live my life. I never liked riding the bus when I was younger and I will not be forced to endure sitting next to some gross, lice infested, drug addict bum on my way to wherever I want to go whenever I want to do it. Keep your nasty left wing ideology to yourself and leave me alone.
So, you will never use Mass Transit, and you never ride a bus, but you know that if you were ever to ride a bus, you would most certainly be forced to sit next to a lice infested bum? Apparently the buses are just crawling with drug addicted, lice infested bums, then?
I may have a stick up my @ss, but you have your head up yours.
I ride a bus that is full of people just like me going to work. Every morning. The 7:45 run, the 8:02 run, the 8:26 run... all of us just going to work. But you wouldn't know that, because you don't ride the bus. And yet somehow you know exactly what riding a bus is like. Weird.
And here's a spoiler... I voted for Prop 1 because I think we need BOTH the roads AND the transit! Whoa! Shocker! I'm actually willing to pay for improvements to every kind of infrastructure because they have ALL been neglected for too long.
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#283743
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 10:35 a.m.
Posted by rorbua57 at 11/7/07 10:11 a.m.
Using mass transit does not work for me and I will never use it.
You will be MADE to use it. You will have no choice, you will be priced out of your car, unless you can afford to pay $5-$6 a gallon for gas.
In case you hadn't noticed, oil prices just reached $100 a barrel.
"We need more roads and less preaching from the unconscionable, vitriolic mass transit types who want to dictate how I live my life."
You're not going to get any more roads, and you need to get use dto that fact or else pack your bags and go move somewhere else.
Look at a map, doofus -- the Seattle area is jammed in between the mountains and the sea. There isn't any room physically for any more roads. The infrastructure is already completely built out. There isn't any room left to expand.
That's why there aren't many brand-new homes being built on virgin, un-built-on land in Seattle. There ISN'T much virgin, un-built-on land in the Seattle area. It's already been built on. We've already arrived at the era of zero-sum construction. For something new to be built, something old and existing has to be taken down and destroyed.
That is exactly the reason why the State wisely enacted the Growth Management Act, to encourage higher density in areas that could afford to handle it and which had the existing infrastructure. The only room left to build is UP.
"I never liked riding the bus when I was younger and I will not be forced to endure sitting next to some gross, lice infested, drug addict bum on my way to wherever I want to go whenever I want to do it."
No, you'll be forced to endure learning to use the legs G-d gave you and to actually WALK to places on your way to wherever you want to go whenever you want to do it.
Of course, you can always resign yourself to paying $5-$6 a gallon for gas, because that's what it's eventually going to cost.
"Keep your nasty left wing ideology to yourself and leave me alone."
Try learning to deal with reality. There's a few other people besides you on this little green-blue planet we all share, and their opinions matter regardless of whether you like it or not.
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#283744
Posted by LoveYourViaduct at 11/7/07 10:35 a.m.
1978.. the price of gas then was 55.9 cents a gallon.
...
in 2004.. the price of gas then was 175.9 cents a gallon.
And today, the state's gas tax is a WHOPPING 36¢ per gallon. The state gas tax is truly the root of all evil. I rest MY case.
For a few years, adjusting for inflation, the gas price DID go down, INCLUDING taxes. Maybe you remember that time. There was a guy living in the White House who had an affair with an intern ... I forget his name, but I'm sure other readers will remember.
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#283749
Posted by Willg at 11/7/07 10:38 a.m.
How about this as a solution: all advocates of higher taxes simly sell their cars and limos and use bikes to ride to work. However, don't form a group like Critical Mass in San Francisco that terrorizes motorists once a month on Friday communte hours.
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#283750
Posted by UncommonSense at 11/7/07 10:38 a.m.
Willy, do a google image search for "historical gas price" and you'll see various versions of that chart all over the Internet. You need to look at the price indexed for inflation (though even the absolute price was cheaper in the mid-80s than the early 80s).
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#283751
Posted by artman51 at 11/7/07 10:38 a.m.
To think that light rail would cause an increase street crime is ridiculous.
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#283756
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 10:41 a.m.
Posted by votingtaxpayer at 11/7/07 10:12 a.m.
"Transportation is a basic function of government and something that is to be addressed using the existing tax base, not by raising taxes when something needs to be fixed/improved/built."
Utter horse manure.
"Other government projects need to be cut or scaled back and that includes health care and other social welfare programs. If someone wants those funded, go to the private sector and ask for funds, make contributions yourself, or do the best with what remains after basic infrastucture needs are met."
Go Pound Sand.
Health care and social welfare programs are the basic functions of government and are things that are to be addressed using the existing tax base, not by raising taxes when something needs to be fixed/improved/built.
Government does not exist to make it "easy" or "comfortable" for you to sit in traffic taking up space, polluting the atmosphere, spewing out greenhouse gases and wasting precious resources with your 9-mile-per-gallon SUV.
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#283760
Posted by jazna1 at 11/7/07 10:45 a.m.
Voters no longer trust the local govt with their hard-earned $$. People I have spoken to are still smarting over the Monorail taxes they paid -- money that went to consultants and lawyers and then the confiscated property was not returned to original owners. The current Sound Transit fees are still with us. Maybe this vote is the backlash of the taxpayers having previous votes ignored (hello baseball and football playpens!) and being taxed anyway. I've been taking the bus to work for decades and I am fully in support of mass transit, but I work with numerous people who drive to work alone (and they live IN Seattle) because it's "easier"; they don't like waiting for buses and they can smoke. The freeways are crowded because it's still too easy/affordable to drive (alone). Why can the powers that be not understand that the roads and transit measures need to be separate? Handing a bunch of civil servants, lawyers and consultants a blank check for the next 30 years is a scary concept and it didn't fly. What's so hard about that? If anyone is in denial, it's the taxpayer-supported ivory tower crowd sitting in conference rooms imagining that taxpayers are going to vote for more sales/license taxes.
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#283763
Posted by Big Caddy at 11/7/07 10:47 a.m.
Where's soulnotsold? I thought he would have an analysis of this... When prominent pre-election pro Prop 1 posters fail to show after the election it makes me wonder if they were part of the organized ST propaganda machine?
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#283766
Posted by Ted Fleming at 11/7/07 10:48 a.m.
"For a few years, adjusting for inflation, the gas price DID go down, INCLUDING taxes. Maybe you remember that time. There was a guy living in the White House who had an affair with an intern ... I forget his name, but I'm sure other readers will remember.
I miss those days.
Someone please tell me what GWB has accomplished in his term (other than the fiasco in Iraq and putting our economy in the toilet). Unlike Republicans, at least Clinton had sex with members of the opposite sex.
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#283768
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 10:49 a.m.
"And today, the state's gas tax is a WHOPPING 36¢ per gallon. The state gas tax is truly the root of all evil. I rest MY case."
WHAAAAAAAAAAA. Poor baby. Stop whining, little one. You have NO CLUE how LUCKY you are.
Gas prices too high? Try Europe.
$7 a gallon? That's what drivers in Amsterdam pay. But Europeans have long adapted to high prices.
By Peter Ford | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
PARIS –
When Guy Colombier pulls his economy car up to a Paris pump, he allows himself just 15 Euros ($18) worth of gas - barely enough for three gallons. Since prices started rising rapidly earlier this year, says Mr. Colombier, a printing press worker, "I drive a lot more slowly ... and I'm looking for a place to live closer to where I work."
Colombier's pain is shared by drivers all over Europe, where fuel prices are the highest in the world: a gallon of gas in Amsterdam now costs $7.13, compared with just $2.61 in America. The contrast in prices and environmental policies - and the dramatically different behaviors they inspire - signals a widening transatlantic energy gap. And it raises the question: Does Europe offer America a glimpse of its future?
Indeed, while Europeans have learned to cope with expensive fuel (mostly due to taxes), there's scant evidence yet that US drivers are adopting their conservation tactics.
"Societies adjust over decades to higher fuel prices," says Jos Dings, head of Transport and Energy, a coalition of European environmental NGOs. "They find many mechanisms."
Chief among them, say experts, is the habit of driving smaller and more fuel-efficient cars. While the average light duty vehicle on US highways gets 21.6 miles per gallon (m.p.g.), according to a study by the Paris based International Energy Agency (IEA), in Paris, its European counterpart manages 32.1 m.p.g.
"European consumers are very sensitive to fuel economy and sophisticated about engine options," says Lew Fulton, a transport analyst with the United Nations Environment Program (UNEP). "European car magazines are full of comparisons of fuel costs over the life of a vehicle."
Europe's cars: 40 percent are diesel.
That approach has given a special boost to diesel cars, which make up more than 40 percent of European car sales, compared with just 4 percent in the US.
Just ahead of Colombier in the line at the gas station Thursday was Nicole Marie, a high school teacher, who was using her husband's diesel Audi, rather than her own gasoline-powered car, to take her daughter to Normandy for a final week of vacation by the sea.
"I only use my car in town," she says. "We bought a diesel car deliberately because it is cheaper to run."
That is partly because the French government encourages the use of more- efficient diesel fuel by taxing it less heavily. Only in four European countries is diesel more expensive than gasoline, the way it is in America.
But efficiency alone does not explain the huge disparity between fuel-use figures on either side of the Atlantic: European per capita consumption of gas and diesel stood at 286 liters a year in 2001, compared to 1,624 in the US, according to IEA figures.
The nature of cities plays a role, too. "America has built its entire society around the car, which enabled suburbs," points out Mr. Dings. "European cities have denser centers where cars are often not practical."
In Paris, for example, about half the trips people make are by foot, by bicycle, or on public transport, says UNEP's Mr. Fulton. In America, that figure is more like 20 percent.
Impact of fuel tax
"The single most effective measure" that has brought down motorists' fuel use in Europe, however, is taxation, says Dings.
On average, 60 percent of the price European drivers pay at the pump goes to their governments in taxes.
In Britain, the government takes 75 percent, and raises taxes by 5 percent above inflation every year (though it has forgone this year's rise in view of rocketing oil prices, and the French government has promised tax rebates this year to taxi drivers, truckers, fishermen, and others who depend heavily on gasoline.)
On August 8, for example, the price of gas in the US, without taxes, would be $2.17, instead of $2.56; in Britain, it would be $1.97, instead of $6.06.
"There is really good evidence that higher prices reduce traffic," says Stephen Glaister, a professor of transportation at London's Imperial College. "If fuel prices go up 10 percent ... fuel consumed goes down by about 7 percent, as people start to use fuel more efficiently, not accelerating so aggressively and switching to more fuel-efficient cars. It does change people's behavior."
The US authorities, however, "are unwilling to use resource price as part of their strategy" to conserve oil, says Lee Schipper, head of transportation research at the Washington-based World Resources Institute, an environmental think tank.
"The biggest hole in our policy today is fuel taxation," he adds. "Tax increases are something Americans should do but don't know how to do, and I wonder if they will ever be able to.
"Consumers want muscle cars, manufacturers say they make what the consumer wants, and the government panders to both constituencies," Mr. Schipper continues. "It's a vicious cycle."
www.csmonitor.com/2005/0826/p01s03-woeu.
html
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#283771
Posted by such complaining at 11/7/07 10:50 a.m.
Willy why are you so hostile? debate the issue like an adult. And give reasons why you feel a certain way rather than responding with "go pound sand" while I have not heard that phrase in years and it is funny it is not mature. If you want people to understand your point of view be a big kid and quit hurling insults.
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#283773
Posted by coryt5000 at 11/7/07 10:52 a.m.
Wild Willy has his or hers panties in a twist this morning , Ah the wonderful moaning of defeat , you know if this thing had of passed I would have accepted it and moved on.
But this Neo Liberal left wing hanging Stranger Employee is out here championing the 40 billion dollar loss of GM. What an absolute idiot, you have any idea how that loss affects wall street or the economy?
You Know I really can't wait until they start building the New Viaduct, that is really going to get wild willy up in a tizzy!
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#283777
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 10:57 a.m.
Gas prices around the world
Think you pay a lot for gas? Perhaps you'd prefer to live in Venezuela.
NEW YORK (CNN/Money) – Gasoline prices in the United States, which have recently hit record highs, are actually much lower than in many countries. Drivers in some European cities, like Amsterdam and Oslo, are paying nearly 3 times more than those in the U.S.
The main factor in price disparities between countries is government policy, according to AirInc, a company that tracks the cost of living in various places around the world. Many European nations tax gasoline heavily, with taxes making up as much as 75 percent of the cost of a gallon of gasoline, said a spokesperson for AirInc.
Nation City Price in USD Regular/Gallon
Netherlands Amsterdam $6.48
Norway Oslo $6.27
Italy Milan $5.96
Denmark Copenhagen $5.93
Belgium Brussels $5.91
Sweden Stockholm $5.80
United Kingdom London $5.79
Germany Frankfurt $5.57
France Paris $5.54
Portugal Lisbon $5.35
Hungary Budapest $4.94
Luxembourg $4.82
Croatia Zagreb $4.81
Ireland Dublin $4.78
Switzerland Geneva $4.74
Spain Madrid $4.55
Japan Tokyo $4.24
Czech Republic Prague $4.19
Romania Bucharest $4.09
Andorra $4.08
Estonia Tallinn $3.62
Bulgaria Sofia $3.52
Brazil Brasilia $3.12
Cuba Havana $3.03
Taiwan Taipei $2.84
Lebanon Beirut $2.63
South Africa Johannesburg $2.62
Nicaragua Managua $2.61
Panama Panama City $2.19
Russia Moscow $2.10
Puerto Rico San Juan $1.74
Saudi Arabia Riyadh $0.91
Kuwait Kuwait City $0.78
Egypt Cairo $0.65
Nigeria Lagos $0.38
Venezuela Caracas $0.12
Source: air-inc.com
money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/global_g
asprices/
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#283778
Posted by markcd at 11/7/07 10:59 a.m.
I think the reasons are simple for those like myself who voted down these initiatives.
1. Sound Transit has not shown any ability to build that which they've been authorized to do without massive delays and huge cost overruns.
2. We have one of the highest gas and sales taxes in the nation and have yet to see much, if any, traffic congestion relief. We see little evidence that raising those taxes would solve any of the current problems.
3. We've reached a certain level of tax exhaustion. Yearly gas tax increases, skyrocketing property tax increases due to rising property values, as well as sales tax increases for various projects have left many to draw the line in the sand and say "NO MORE".
Oh, and janza1, just a quick fact check. The Seahawks stadium was approved by the majority of voters the first time.
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#283781
Posted by Hiltonbaas at 11/7/07 11:02 a.m.
Posted by Rod_Handler at 11/7/07 8:33 a.m.
"Our bridges are going to collapse in the next earthquake.
All you tax haters are greedy.
The deaths will be on your hands, you murderers."
Rod, honey? Which School for Screaming Drama Queens did you attend? Really, what are you going to do when something REALLY happens? Did you actually vote? Or were you too busy reading Jihad for Dummies?
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#283782
Posted by SportsDepressed at 11/7/07 11:02 a.m.
Willy says "Health care and social welfare programs are the basic functions of government"
Based on what?
I don't see it in the constitution and I don't believe our founding fathers would have agreed with that.
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#283786
Posted by Yodling at 11/7/07 11:04 a.m.
The Puget Sound has developed a major traffic problem that will only be solved by increasing taxes. It seemed to me that paying an extra $150 per year would be a small cost for a good plan to reduce traffic. If toll booths are installed on the major highways to collect future funds, they will cause even worse traffic slowdowns that exist today.
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#283797
Posted by dpk at 11/7/07 11:11 a.m.
"Not in the pocket for long. That represents the gas tax alone for one gallon per day. Currently, $12 buys about 4 gallons of gas - and shrinking. For some, that's one day's commute."
First, it was estimated this would have cost $12 average taxpayers per month, it's not just in addition to their gas purchases (since this was a sales tax on everything, not just a gas tax).
Second, I have little sympathy for anyone that uses 4 gallons of gas a day to get to commute to and from work. I'd have more sympathy for someone who needed to drive from point to point to point, but if you're not one of those, it's probably time to move. *4* gallons. That's just insane.
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#283805
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 11:15 a.m.
"But this Neo Liberal left wing hanging Stranger Employee is out here championing the 40 billion dollar loss of GM. What an absolute idiot, you have any idea how that loss affects wall street or the economy?"
Yes, it's wonderful!
FINALLY, GM will go away once and for all. And so will all of their Luddite employees.
And all the reactionary Looney-Tunes at GM, who have spent the last 40+ years resisting and fighting against anything and everything that the government has ever done or tried to do to make things better for the American people, will all lose their jobs once and for all.
They will go away. They will disappear. They will go off into the woods and die.
For 40+ years, GM (and, to a lesser extent, Ford) has done everything in its power to fight against:
* Child car seats with safety belts.
* Lap Seat belts.
* Shoulder seat belts.
* Safety glass.
* Collapsible steering columns.
* 5-mph safety bumpers.
* Crumple-zones.
* Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) standards.
* Catalytic convertors.
* Driver-side airbags.
* Passenger side airbags.
* Side-impact beams.
* Side-curtain airbags.
* Rollover protection standards.
* Mandatory emissions controls.
* Fuel Economy Standards for Light Trucks
* Electronic Stability Control (ESC).
* Tire Pressure Monitoring Systems.
Anything and virtually everything that has ever been accomplished that has served to make automobiles safer, more fuel-efficient, less polluting and more benign to the environment of the world we live in, has been achieved NOT "because of" the automakers, but IN SPITE OF them -- with GM being the principal resister.
Once GM is gone, the path will be clear for the takeover of the U.S. auto industry by the foreign manufacturers who have spent 40+ years developing smaller, more fuel-efficient vehicles -- and who are currently and still the pioneers in the development of gas/electric hybrid-powered vehicles.
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#283810
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 11:18 a.m.
"You Know I really can't wait until they start building the New Viaduct, that is really going to get wild willy up in a tizzy!"
ROTFLMAO!!!!
Like, you SERIOUSLY think that's EVER going to get built?!?!?!
LOL!!!!
You're delusional.
It's not going to happen - ever.
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#283811
Posted by screen name taken at 11/7/07 11:19 a.m.
I would love to have a transit system like Amsterdam, and rail lines like Europe. That would be fantastic. Forget the cars. I live in the U-district, and work on Madison, no commute there. My wife works 2 blocks from home. I don't give a damn if the freeway is gridlocked 24/7. I spend no money on gas. Ha ha.
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#283814
Posted by MrJame at 11/7/07 11:22 a.m.
Evidently we don't have enough of a traffic problem to do anything about it. All of you who voted this down...you SUCK!
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#283816
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 11:23 a.m.
Posted by votingtaxpayer at 11/7/07 10:12 a.m.
"Transportation is a basic function of government and something that is to be addressed using the existing tax base, not by raising taxes when something needs to be fixed/improved/built."
Feel free to show us where the U.S. Constitution says anything at all about it being allegedly the "responsibility" or "obligation" of Government to spend more and more of the taxpayers' money to build more roads out to connect more cities to more sprawling subdivisions being built by private developers.
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#283819
Posted by Belltowngirl at 11/7/07 11:26 a.m.
Just thought I would pass this along. About 8:45pm last night - right after the first returns came in showing Prop 1 going down to an ignomanious defeat - I got an interesting phone call. This was a computer generated "voters poll" (you know the kind - press 1 for this and 2 for that) asking how I'd voted on Prop 1. When I indicated I'd voted against it the poll then had a number of questions about why and if I would vote for other smaller packages and if I liked/disliked various local pols such as Gov. Chris Gregoire and County Exec Ron Sims. So folks who were for this proposition, take heart - they're already polling to figure out how to put it up for a vote again.
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#283821
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 11:26 a.m.
votingtaxpayer,
"Another place funds can be found is the matching 10% 401(k) contribution that Sound Transit makes for its employees. There is nothing comparable to this in the private sector..."
Thank you for demonstrating that you really don't have a clue what the heck you are taling about.
I spent 4 years working for PEMCO Insurance, from 1989-1993.
They have a dollar-for-dollar, 100% matching 401(k) contribution plan which they make for their employees.
And they're a private-sector company.
Get a clue.
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#283824
Posted by such complaining at 11/7/07 11:29 a.m.
Willy you sure seem to have a lot of time of your hands to write these rambling posts that seem more like your diluted sense of reality rather than what it is...i think you are so worried seattle will not follow your hippie ways you scream and yell on posts...the more you scream and insult the better chance it will happen?? why don't you take all this enegy and move to Oregon or something they would love to have a hhippie like you down there and Seattle will be one less crazy...
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#283827
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 11:32 a.m.
suchcomplaining,
Why don't you take all your "NO TAXES! NO TAXES!" whining and screaming and move dow to Oregon yourself? Your screen name is appropriate, all you seem to do on here is complain endlessly about the "Big Bad Government". Oregon would be the perfect place for you. They hate taxes down there, which is why they have virtually no infrastructure, virtually no major employers, and virtually no tax base. Plus, their school systems are collapsing because they keep voting down school levies. You'd love it, I'm sure.
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#283828
Posted by Will in Seattle at 11/7/07 11:32 a.m.
Dude, you worked for PEMCO too? Sweet. Good times.
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#283829
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 11:33 a.m.
Will, yes, I worked in your department. With you.
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#283833
Posted by Sick&Tired at 11/7/07 11:36 a.m.
With the measure failing, the Legislature likely will act on its own on financing to replace the Evergreen Point Bridge, said Sen. Mary Margaret Haugen, D-Camano Island and chairwoman of the Senate Transportation Committee.
Is this the same Sen. Haugen that said if Proposition 1 failed it would be 25 years before anything is done? Can we believe anything she says? We should demand more from our representitives.
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#283835
Posted by such complaining at 11/7/07 11:38 a.m.
re read my posts dude I am not complaining about the goverment I just think you are a little off your rocker on all this...
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#283836
Posted by jazna1 at 11/7/07 11:38 a.m.
MarkCD, re your comment about the Seahawks stadium being approved by the taxpayers the first time: it seems I remember a Paul Allen-financed second vote to get approval of his stadium because the first one went down the toilet. I could be wrong - can anyone help me out here? But it seems, as I recall, that a lot of people were not too happy about paying for Paul Allen's FB team playpen. (Isn't he one of those guys who can afford to buy his own toys? Although you would never know it by the number of times he has gone begging to the city for $$ for his little projects - the SLUT, EMP, etc.) The point was that the taxpayers have been asked to pony up $$ for a lot of fluff luxury items and maybe the Prop 1 no vote was a sign of voter burn-out. A lot of people are PO'd and tax-maxed.
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#283838
Posted by Soccer.Guy at 11/7/07 11:39 a.m.
As soon as the government in this state starts to allocate money the way they're supposed to instead of taxing us more to fund God knows what, I will vote against any tax increase.
Hey ArmyWife, people like you always trot out this reason, but can never identify which funds were "diverted" to what project that they should not have been. Provide proof or stop spreading nonsense.
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#283839
Posted by Jon Organ at 11/7/07 11:40 a.m.
"Like, you SERIOUSLY think [the Alaskan Way Viaduct is] EVER going to get built?!?!?! LOL!!!! You're delusional. It's not going to happen - ever." (Wild_Willy)
Well, either it will have to be rebuilt, or we'll have to do without it. There are not many other choices. Just leaving it alone is not a viable option, unless we're just waiting for it to collapse before we contemplate building a replacement?
We know a collapse has a high probability of resulting in a loss of life, so either we replace the structure before that happens, or we wait. Statistically we shouldn't need to wait more than 50 years for another substantial regional earthquake event. Thus we can be almost entirely certain that either we'll replace the viaduct before that time, or we'll do so afterwards. Or we won't replace it, but it will still have to be demolished due to structural integrity concerns.
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#283844
Posted by hawk5000 at 11/7/07 11:46 a.m.
Hay Wild_Willy, extremist are not productive weather they are extreme rite or extreme left. Your opinions are about as relevant to me as the opinions of President Bush.
You give people who tend to think left of center like myself a bad name with all your hatred and small minded views. Changing the world requires building consensus. Something you obviously don’t care about accomplishing. This just makes your supper lefty rants pointless words dropped on deaf ears. Know one cares what you have to say when it is raped in intolerant insults.
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#283847
Posted by Sick&Tired at 11/7/07 11:53 a.m.
Posted by Rod_Handler at 11/7/07 8:33 a.m.
Our bridges are going to collapse in the next earthquake.
All you tax haters are greedy.
The deaths will be on your hands, you murderers.
If there are immediate safety issues with our roads and bridges that are not being addressed, then you should point blame at the WSDOT, the legislature, and the governor for not allocating the funding from the current budget. I suspect that the issues are not as dire as they lead us to believe.
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#283850
Posted by Proud Army Wife at 11/7/07 11:56 a.m.
I have solutions everyone! Wait for it....wait for it.....
Make it harder to obtain a drivers' license. In Germany, when I lived there, it cost about DM500 (approximately $800-$900 at the time, depending on the exchange rate) to get your driver's license, and the written test is about 300 questions long. It's extremely hard, so it forces the people who cannot pass the test to use other modes of transportation.
Get rid of the carpool lanes. Washington drivers using carpool lanes are just flat out stupid. They wait until they're 3/4 of a mile away from their exit, and try to cut across 3 lanes of traffic to make their exit. If they could learn to change lanes just 2 miles beforehand, it would help.
If you're driving slower, stay to the right. This state and California are the only 2 states I've been in where drivers consistently pass on the left, and people going 55 mph are in the fast lane.
When you are approaching an off-ramp, move over to the next lane if you see cars trying to merge. This helps them merge at a decent speed, and prevents traffic jams from starting from people slamming on their brakes to let people in.
Get off your cell phone, stop text messaging, and don't eat while you're driving. You take your eyes off the road, you're distracted, and you obviously can't multi-task if you need to slam on your brakes because you've been inattentive while driving.
All these things are basic driving rules that no one seems to bother with adhering to. Remember, driving is a privelige, not a right, so stop treating it like it is.
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#283851
Posted by scarlet oak at 11/7/07 11:56 a.m.
To get off the topic a little (but we are talking about taxes)--IMHO, we are not overly taxed in the Puget Sound. The vast majority of states have BOTH an income tax AND a sales tax, sometimes a hefty one. I am speaking personally of course, but I feel I can to some extent chose how much I am taxed by buying less expensive items (less sales tax) and driving less (less gasoline tax). I realize not everyone has those options, but many can reduce their tax burden by spending less, driving less, and (thus) saving more. Also, where my mother lives, property taxes are literally twice what the are in Seattle for the same home value. All that said, I am sorry Prop 1 failed. If gasoline prices continue up, those who commute long distances will be paying more to the oil companies and oil sheiks than they would every have paid for the transit and road improvements that went down to defeat yesterday.
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#283853
Posted by Proud Army Wife at 11/7/07 11:57 a.m.
Correction: in the part where I'm talking about passing, I meant to say that people consistently pass on the right.
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#283857
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 12:01 p.m.
Soccer.Guy,
RE: your thoughtful comments:
"Hey ArmyWife, people like you always trot out this reason, but can never identify which funds were "diverted" to what project that they should not have been. Provide proof or stop spreading nonsense."
Absolutely correct. Spot-on.
People like her and VotingTaxpayer are prime examples of the right-wing nut-job cranks who paralyze any attempt to improve things in this state.
They'll rant about imaginary and fictitious alleged "overpaid government bureaucrats", but when you pointedly ask them to put their money where their mouths are and provide the names, addresses and phone numbers of these imaginary and fictitious "overpaid government bureaucrats", they yap and whine a bit... and then promptly disappear, without responding.
They really don't have the slightest clue what they're talking about, they just like to hear the sound of their own yapping voices as they launch into continual tirades about imaginary "overpaid government bureaucrats".
Their grip on reality is rather tenuous, as votingtaxpayer's rant demonstrates.
He bytches and yaps about Sound Transit supposedly being "too generous" to its employees by offering a "whopping" "10% matching 401(k) contribution" and tries to claim that this is supposedly "far more generous than what the private sector would provide."
Then it's pointed out to him that:
A. many, many private-sector employers provide some form of matching 401(k) contribution;
B. A 10% matching contribution isn't even particularly generous from a private-sector employer; many private-sector employers contribute far, far more than 10%; and
C. PEMCO Insurance, a company that is most assuredly a private-sector employer, contributes 100% matching of its employees' 401(k) contributions, and a number of its employees have become millionaires because of this.
And, all of a sudden -- surprise, surprise! -- votingtaxpayer suddenly goes silent and off the air, because it's been pointed out to him that he hasn't a clue what he's talking about.
But that's typical of the right-wing nut-job ranters' outlook on life -- they're always "ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED" (without s shred of supporting evidence, of course) that the "whole problem" is that "Somewhere in Government, Someone" (Name Unknown, of course) "is being 'OVERPAID' and 'NEEDS to HAVE THEIR SALARIES CUT', or else 'NEEDS to LOSE THEIR JOBS' ".
You'll notice that to the right-wing nut-jobs, it's always some fictional, imaginary, name-unknown "Someone Else" who "Needs to Get Fired", "Needs to Make Less Money" or "Needs to Have Their 'Cushy' Benefits Reduced".
Of course, these right-wing nut-jobs would predictably react with outrage to the suggestion that they should "Take Less Money," have "their" benefits cut, or lose THEIR jobs.
It's always some fictional, imaginary, non-existent, delusional "Someone Else" who's to blame -- never themselves.
Whiny nut-jobs.
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#283860
Posted by coryt5000 at 11/7/07 12:03 p.m.
We will see about the Viaduct Wild Willy the issue has been in hibernation these last few months with prop One and all, but it will come up here again in full force in the next few months.
My bet the state is going to be annoyed at Seattle and the likes of the Sierra club from prop one that they are going to go right ahead and rebuild the thing, transit surface be dam*ed! This is the correct decision there are thousands of maritime jobs that depend on the viaduct to take cars away from the trucking lanes on the streets below it, transport will come a grinding halt if you put the 100,000 cars a day on to the surface streets. You want a green boulevard go to lake washington drive, an excellent view especially this time of year.
The Fact is the Viaduct moves cars and freight which is crucial to the economic longevity of this region just like GM is to the US economy.
Light Rail is dead! The Viaduct is most likely going to get rebuilt! People are hurting economically and can't spare hundreds in taxes to build an overly ambitious light rail system.
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#283861
Posted by equalibrium at 11/7/07 12:04 p.m.
Wild Willy -
The amount of horse hockey you talk is commendable. But be honest, you don't have cajones to slash a tire or put sugar in a gas tank. Besides, you need to practice more of your left wing liberal attitudes and SHARE your neighborhood.
Secondly, you know as well as I do the idea of GM going out of business is bad thing. It's bad for the employees and stock holders and the economy.
Finally all those "safety" items you mentioned above mean absolutely nothing because once they are mandated on cars, it encourages drivers to drive less safely as they are more protected. We simply add cost to vehicles when we tell car makers they must have something. Safety is never the concern of law makers who endorse "safety products". And don't try to argue this point. It is basic economics and disagreeing with it would be like admitting that the theory of evolution is only a theory.
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#283865
Posted by Proud Army Wife at 11/7/07 12:06 p.m.
Absolutely correct. Spot-on.
People like her and VotingTaxpayer are prime examples of the right-wing nut-job cranks who paralyze any attempt to improve things in this state.
Well, maybe you have the answer then? I don't know for sure if those funds are being diverted into other programs, but they certainly aren't being used on the 520 bridge, so you tell me...where is that money?
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#283866
Posted by Proud Army Wife at 11/7/07 12:07 p.m.
Oh, and PS, I never said that any particular government official was getting over-paid. I said that those funds are going to some nebulous cause that the voters do not see.
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#283871
Posted by coryt5000 at 11/7/07 12:12 p.m.
Likes to hear the sound of their yapping voices,
yeah thats why most people don't write novels on their posts here wild willy, keep on complaining you lost get over it.
Further more you seem to be supporting a right wing conspiracy theory here as to why Prop One Failed. As if we lived in Jacksonville or something,
You know when a bill gets tromped over 13% last time i checked the results, in King, Pierce, Snohomish counties, an awful lot of democrats and moderates would have to have voted against it. Sorry but there really are not that many Right Wing nut cases in western washington to support your looney claims!
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#283872
Posted by craiges at 11/7/07 12:12 p.m.
Remember, the main reason that I voted against this measure was the fact that government still seems to have plenty of cash available to purchase and scrap the active BNSF eastside line for a bike trail.
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#283873
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 12:12 p.m.
Posted by hawk5000 at 11/7/07 11:46 a.m.
"Hay Wild_Willy, extremist are not productive weather they are extreme rite or extreme left. Your opinions are about as relevant to me as the opinions of President Bush. You give people who tend to think left of center like myself a bad name with all your hatred and small minded views."
You are giving public-school graduates a bad name by continually demonstrating your inability to SPELL.
"Hay Wild_Willy" should be spelled as "Hey, Wild_Willy".
"weather" should be spelled as "whether".
"extreme rite" should be spelled as "extreme right".
"your supper lefty" should be spelled as "your SUPER lefty".
"Know one cares" should be spelled as "No one cares".
And I am guessing that "when it is raped" should be spelled as "when it is wrapped", since I have never "raped" anything or anyone.
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#283874
Posted by zzsz at 11/7/07 12:13 p.m.
Until West Seattle is included in a broad transportation plan, this entire area will mostly vote no on these types of measures.
West Seattle was completely ignored in Prop. 1, especially by Sound Transit. The inclusion of West Seattle for a "study" of expansion could not be taken seriously. When would that have taken place, 2030?
Just follow the plan for the monorail using light rail. Obviously there was a need for mass transit here (and the monorail was accepted by voters on more than one occasion, until it finally removed most of the West Seattle portion). This need did not just go away...Oh yeah, and some people also want to remove the Viaduct too. Talk about a region-wide mess...
Safety first: fix the viaduct, fix the 520 bridge, then expand light rail both North to South AND West to East.
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#283878
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 12:16 p.m.
"Changing the world requires building consensus. Something you obviously don’t care about accomplishing."
The whole point of Proposition 1 was that it DID TRY TO BUILD consensus - it offered something for the environmentalists (mass transit funding), AND something for the "other" folks (more money for road construction and improvements).
That was the WHOLE POINT; it WAS an attempt at building consensus.
Obviously, "consensus" was not what was needed.
What is clearly needed is for some powerful group to simply ram through the improvements that are needed, without any public "vote" on the matter at all.
That is the way that transit systems are built and managed in other countries, and clearly they seem to be doing a much, much better job of it than we are, because they actually get things built.
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#283891
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 12:25 p.m.
Like, you SERIOUSLY think [the Alaskan Way Viaduct is] EVER going to get built?!?!?! LOL!!!! You're delusional. It's not going to happen - ever
Posted by Jon Organ at 11/7/07 11:40 a.m.
Well, either it will have to be rebuilt, or we'll have to do without it. There are not many other choices.
It will not be rebuilt, and people will eventually have to LEARN to do without it. The exact same people who rant about imaginary and fictitious "government bureaucrats" supposedly "wasting money on transit projects" are the very same people who phone in to the right-wing nut-job talk-radio stations and complain that the projected costs to rebuild the viaduct are "too high, too gold-plated, too expensive", as though all we need to do is supposedly wrap a couple of layers of chewing gum around the thing to hold it together in the event of a quake.
The Know-Nothings are always out in full force, as last night's vote showed.
.......................
"Just leaving it alone is not a viable option, unless we're just waiting for it to collapse before we contemplate building a replacement?"
Just leaving it alone is a perfectly viable option, because YES, the majority of people ARE just waiting for it to collapse before we contemplate building a replacement.
That's the standard Right-Wing Nut-Job / Talk-Radio Rant - "Them Thar Government Buriey-crats say it'll cost millions o' dollars to fix the viaduct, but Shoot -- ma brother sez he and his pickup truck kin do the job fer $19.95 and a couple o' cases of Coors Light!!!"
Fixing or replacing the viaduct will cost hundreds of millions, if not billions, of dollars.
And - as usual - the Right-Wing Nut-Jobs don't want to pay for it.
Therefore, nothing will be done, at least not until we have another good-sized quake and the thing collapses, and probably takes a few hundred people down with it.
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#283892
Posted by coryt5000 at 11/7/07 12:25 p.m.
sure they get things built because there are millions of people living in concentrated areas, much more accommodating to mass transit in the form of rail.
What is clearly needed is for some powerful group to simply ram through the improvements that are needed, without any public "vote" on the matter at all.
I am sure thats how they did it under Stalin Too!
Yeah forgo democracy so the state can institute the biggest tax increase in state history. LOL great idea!
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#283901
Posted by seasalt at 11/7/07 12:30 p.m.
Well, I voted "yes" in the end, even though I had a very strong feeling that it was going down in flames. I simply didn't want it to fail too badly, in order to send a message that some of us really are interested in fixing our transportation ills for the future.
I shared my concerns on other threads, but they boil down to not wanting everything bundled together (preferring a cafeteria approach to seeking voter approval), and finding the regressive taxation (sales tax) offensive. I prefer, for example, using congestion pricing (e.g. tolls on 520) to fund the new 520.
As a daily Metro user for the past two years (no car since 2005) I am well aware of the limitations of Metro, but more dedicated bus lanes (especially during rush hour) would go a long way to improving ridership. We also need more east-west neighborhood routes and fewer long-distance local routes (e.g. the 5 continuing as the 54 and vice-versa means that if there is a traffic problem ANYWHERE from Shoreline to West Seattle, then the 5 is delayed. Dumb.)
We also need to get rid of the downtown "ride free area" and strictly enforce fee payment (no money, no ride) to increase transit revenue and cut down on the number of criminal malingerers who (for example) hop on the 358 downtown and then ride all the way to 145th street with no intention of paying a dime. My best guess on the 358 is that up to half the riders don't pay; how much does that add up to in a year? How much is the total lost revenue across Metro?!?
Downtown businesses and hotels could give out bus passes and tickets to employees and visitors for getting around downtown, but I think that the "ride free area" is seriously adding to Metro's social ills and lost revenue.
Let's be frank: who wants to ride sitting next to a filthy, slobbering drunk with lice and B.O. so horrible it makes your eyes water? That's what the "ride free area" encourages and of course this strongly discourages normal people from riding the bus. It turns a bus ride into a ride through purgatory! That's not exactly what increases ridership, is it?
Dedicate one lane of 520 to transit and van pools only during rush hour. Ditto 99 and other congested highways. Then double or triple the crowded Express routes to give us room to sit down on Express busses. Busses could be zipping around instead of crawling in traffic. People would be more likely to get out of their cars and onto busses if they KNEW that they'd get where they're going quickly, comfortably and lice-free.
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#283903
Posted by T Heller at 11/7/07 12:34 p.m.
Wild_willy futiely attempts to regain some credibility by pouncing on what very likely was a typing error of someone else: "He bytches {sic} and yaps about Sound Transit supposedly being "too generous" to its employees by offering a "whopping" "10% matching 401(k) contribution" and tries to claim that this is supposedly "far more generous than what the private sector would provide."
Let's see now...he could have left off a '0' before the '%'. Or, he could have meant the upper limit of matching contributions, like 'up to 10% of your annual compensation' (that's pretty liberal policy, is it not?)
So, Wild_willy, why don't you seek some clarification before going off on one of your rants? Oh, that's right -- that would require too much research on your part. That would be too much work. And it might require you to be a bit more humble when engaging others. Apparently, that's not like you.
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#283904
Posted by coryt5000 at 11/7/07 12:35 p.m.
Just checking here but we are still talking about western Washingoton here correct?
Reading Wild Willy'S right wing conspiracy theories is fascinating fiction. Right wingers out to get everyone in one of the most liberal voting districts in the country. LOL
Heres the facts though, IN ORDER FOR A BILL TO GET DESTROYED LIKE PROP ONE JUST DID IN WESTERN WASHINGTON, THERE WOULD HAVE HAVE TO BE A LOT OF DEMOCRATS AND MODERATES WHO VOTED AGAINST IT.
THERE IS NO RIGHT WING CONSPIRACY THEORY!
If you are this paranoid about right wingers in western Washington, I think the only place left for you in the USA would be Berkley were other like minded communists would share your idea to suspend voting rights on huge tax increases. Hey you can ride the BART down there too, why don't you get going and when your gone stay gone!
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#283906
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 12:37 p.m.
Posted by coryt5000 at 11/7/07 12:03 p.m.
"We will see about the Viaduct Wild Willy the issue has been in hibernation these last few months with prop One and all, but it will come up here again in full force in the next few months."
And it'll go down to a resounding defeat - AGAIN.
"My bet the state is going to be annoyed at Seattle and the likes of the Sierra club from prop one that they are going to go right ahead and rebuild the thing, transit surface be dam*ed!"
LOL! Boy, you are funny. You don't intend to be, but you are really funny.
The rest of the state doesn't give a rats' patoot about Seattle, and already thinks they spend too much in taxes on transit projects that have nothing to do with them or their commuinity at all and which only serve to benefit a few whiny people in Seattle.
"This is the correct decision there are thousands of maritime jobs that depend on the viaduct"
That is NOT the correct decision at all.
The CORRECT decision would have been to enact the more-expensive but more-beneficial long-term option of building an artificial lid and tunnel over where the Viaduct now stands.
The tunnel would have provided several dedicated tunnel lanes of traffic (which could have been reserved strictly for freight traffic, or reserved strictly for non-freight traffic, with additional freight-only lanes being built overhead).
The tunnel would also have allowed for the building of billions of dollars' worth of new residential and commercial construction ON TOP OF the lid over the tunnel lanes - which would have created billions of dollars' worth of revenue to the state in the form of real estate excise and B & O taxes.
It would have created literally billions of dollars' worth of value from literally nothing.
But, of course -- it would have cost money, and Doofuses like you didn't want to pay for it, SOOOOOOOOOOOO..... here we are - AGAIN.
"to take cars away from the trucking lanes on the streets below it, transport will come a grinding halt if you put the 100,000 cars a day on to the surface streets."
Too bad for transport! Learn to use other ways of getting around.
"The Fact is the Viaduct moves cars and freight which is crucial to the economic longevity of this region just like GM is to the US economy."
Bull puckey.
The FACT is that GM is not "crucial" to anything at all - if they go out of business (and they will - it is just a metter of time) virtually no one will even notice they are gone. Their former employees can go get jobs at Toyota and Honda of America and learn how to build FUEL-EFFICIENT cars and build them the RIGHT way.
Nor is the Viaduct "crucial" to anyone except frieght haulers, and there are other routes available for them to use.
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#283910
Posted by markcd at 11/7/07 12:42 p.m.
Thank you seasalt, couldn't have said it much better myself. I'd add most of I-5 to the list of highways that need dedicated bus/vanpool lanes. Most mornings on my commute on the bus from Snohomish Country to downtown, we don't go much faster than the general purpose lanes.
If you doubled or tripled express bus service and coupled that with big parking garages at the Park & Rides, you could make a big dent in the traffic problem for a fraction of the cost that Prop. 1 proposed.
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#283913
Posted by coryt5000 at 11/7/07 12:43 p.m.
doofsus like me and 70% of other Seattlietes who rejected the tunnel option, you really are not ding too good of a job arguing here, you still are yapping about the tunnel option, Do you work for the Mayors office.
The tunnel got 30% of the vote!
What are you rambling on about exactly?
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#283915
Posted by T Heller at 11/7/07 12:44 p.m.
Seasalt: you've got some good ideas. As a former 'northender', I particularly agree with the improvement of E-W services. You also make a good point re: the unpleasant practical consequence of running commute buses into/through the ride-free zone. Maybe the commute runs to downtown should be run separately from a free downtown shuttle service.
I'd encourage you to contact Jack Whisner, a senior service planner at Metro. He's an honest broker, so to speak, deeply knowledgeable & highly focused on improved bus services. Let's see if I can dredge his email address...darn, can't find one -guess it's been a few years since I last communicated with him.
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#283917
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 12:45 p.m.
Posted by equalibrium at 11/7/07 12:04 p.m.
Wild Willy - The amount of horse hockey you talk is commendable. But be honest, you don't have cajones to slash a tire or put sugar in a gas tank.
Try me :-)
"Besides, you need to practice more of your left wing liberal attitudes and SHARE your neighborhood."
I do share my neighborhood. Unfortunately, I presently have to "share" it with cranky drivers who think nothing of zooming through my neighborhood at high speed in an effort to save a few minutes' commute -- and who are oblivious to the fact that there are children (including my kids) riding their bikes or walking on their way to school, and who could easily be run down and killed.
"Secondly, you know as well as I do the idea of GM going out of business is bad thing. It's bad for the employees and stock holders and the economy."
False. It's not bad for anybody at all, except for the stockholders, who clearly knew what they were risking (or certainly should have known) when they chose to buy stock in a company that has been in one of the longest continuous slow-motion death spirals in business history and which has been losing market share for 20+ years.
The GM employees can go get jobs elsewhere, or retire. GM already has far more pensioners than active workers. That's part of GM's basic problem. They have too many employees for the number of vehicles they produce. They still need to fire more people and close more plants.
There are already almost as many people working in the United States and building Hondas (Ohio), Toyotas (California, Kentucky), BMWs (South Carolina) and Mercedes (Alabama) as there are building cars for GM, Ford and Chrysler.
You don't hear as much about them because unlike the folks at GM or Ford, they don't spend their time whining and demanding to be "protected" by the Gub'mint from competition.
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#283922
Posted by jrscline at 11/7/07 12:51 p.m.
LOL... Wild_willy, you're frothing at the mouth. Never seen anyone so enthusiastic about spending other peoples' money. You must have had a financial stake in Prop. 1 getting passed, eh?
I just moved here from Florida and my main observation is 1) that Seattlites think the rest of Washington State revolves around them, 2) that as a whole, the state is already taxed to death, and 3) I feel sorry for the kids who'll have to make tough choices in future when the tax base can no longer support the extragavant spending of the well-intentioned Politburo.
Gov. Gregoire seems determined to turn Washington into a socialist paradise like California.
If people thought their existing taxes were being properly used, I suspect they wouldn't mind paying a bit more. As it is, I don't get the sense from my friends and neighbors that they feel their tax money is going where it should. Solve that perception problem, and funding for niceties like light rail will be easier to pass.
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#283923
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 12:53 p.m.
Posted by equalibrium at 11/7/07 12:04 p.m.
"Finally all those "safety" items you mentioned above mean absolutely nothing because once they are mandated on cars, it encourages drivers to drive less safely as they are more protected. We simply add cost to vehicles when we tell car makers they must have something. Safety is never the concern of law makers who endorse "safety products". And don't try to argue this point. It is basic economics and disagreeing with it would be like admitting that the theory of evolution is only a theory."
Thank you for the laugh! That was one of the most breathtakingly stupid comments I have ever seen in my life.
The safety items that have been mandated on automobiles have made a breathtaking difference in terms of their impact and their improvement on automobile safety.
They have resulted in the rate of deaths and injurties being reduced sharply over the past three decades.
Today, millions of Americans drive millions of miles more with far fewer accidents per capita OR per mile traveled than ever before in ourt nation's history.
And the reason they do so is because they are able to drive in vehicles that have been engineered to be safer than ever before and which do a far better job of protecting motorists than at any point in automotive hitory.
And for that, we owe it ALL to GOVERNMENT. GOVERNMENT, the force for good in our daily lives. Government, the force that forces the private sector to actually do good things for people, and NOT just for profit. GOVERNMENT, which acts to protect the interests of the citizenry and populace from the rapacious profit interests of those who would build vehicles as cheaply and flimsily as possible and leave the People to pay the price of their greed and lust for profit.
Thank GOD for GOVERNMENT, a RIGHTEOUS FORCE FOR GOOD in our lives!!
Thank GOD for Ralph Nader and the NHTSA!!!
And good riddance to GM, which once even hired private detctives to spy on and follow Ralph Nader, because they couldn't stand to hear the truth he was telling people about automotive safety.
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#283927
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 12:56 p.m.
Posted by Iblis at 11/7/07 12:04 p.m.
Thats Ok willy. Ill just pop a couple of caps into you house as I drive by... my way of just saying hello nieghbor!!
Take your best shot, sweety!! :-)
Posted by T Heller at 11/7/07 1:01 p.m.
markcd notes: "...and coupled that with big parking garages at the Park & Rides, you could make a big dent..."
Those (massive) park-and-ride garages are blights imposed upon the communities where they're located.
To my way of thinking, massive park-and-ride garages represent *failures* in transportation plans and policy. These garages, like the alluring but shallow slogan of TOD (transit-oriented development, which claims people *really want* to live above those garages) are really artifacts of hub-and-spoke, downtown-centric transit planning that tries to pump ever more & more people downtown - at both huge public expense (e.g. ST) and at the cost of blighting the unfortunate neighborhoods where the transit stations are placed.
As I've written elsewhere, Northgate is such an example. While it could be transformed into a 'downtown-like district' where jobs, retail, residential and entertainment can co-exist cheek-by-jowl, serving the vast numbers of well-educated and trained people in the northend who live north of the UDistrict (a district that wouldn't require a multi-billion dollar light rail line to enable access to those jobs, btw), the planners at ST, PSRC and the City *only* perceive the future role of Northgate as a big collection 7 distribution point for light rail. Thus, their plans call for massive parking garages to serve people who commute to downtown and need to 'ditch' their cars somewhere all day.
I don't mind lots of cars parking at Northgate, but I'd much rather they be cars of people working, shopping, eating or 'playing' at Northgate, not the cars of people who simply want a convenient place to stash their cars everyday during the workday. But the planners at ST, PSRC and the City can't see that possibility. They are blind.
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#283932
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 1:01 p.m.
Posted by coryt5000 at 11/7/07 12:25 p.m.
sure they get things built because there are millions of people living in concentrated areas, much more accommodating to mass transit in the form of rail.
And there are well over a million people living in the Seattle-Tacoma-Everett corridor, Genius.
And there will be more millions of people arriving here and living here in the next 20-30 years. The population is projected to grow by at least a million people. That's a conservative estimate, by the way.
Where do you plan to put them all? Or were you thinking of building more suburban "sprawl" subdivisions out in the middle of nowehere, and then demanding that the state and the taxpayers foot the bill for more roads to connect to those subdivisions out in the middle of nowhere, because you don't believe in the idea of mass transit?
Gee, NO, we're NOT going to do that.
Imbecile.
What is clearly needed is for some powerful group to simply ram through the improvements that are needed, without any public "vote" on the matter at all.
"Yeah forgo democracy so the state can institute the biggest tax increase in state history. LOL great idea!"
Yes, that's exactly right. That's how it SHOULD HAVE been done. That's why Vancouver, B.C. has a wondrous Skytrain system. And we don't.
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#283938
Posted by Ted Fleming at 11/7/07 1:09 p.m.
I think some of you need to step away from the keyboard and take some nice, deep breaths.
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#283939
Posted by rorbua57 at 11/7/07 1:10 p.m.
I think it should be apparent to all by now that Marine Vet changed his/her name to Wild Willy. In any event it is still quite amusing to read his/her posts. I can't wait until the Viaduct situation heats up again. The back and forth banter from the various opposing groups on the Sound Off message boards is actually very entertaining to peruse. Economic reality will prevail and the WSDOT will mandate that a bigger and better "Super Viaduct" be built to handle the inevitable increasing traffic on SR99 and foster economic growth. The left wing social engineers will be forced to lick their wounds and scamper off to whatever rock they came out from under with their tails between their legs hopefully to never be heard from again.
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#283941
Posted by fourten1j at 11/7/07 1:11 p.m.
People who choose to live in the suburbs deserve to sit in the traffic that they create.
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#283942
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 1:12 p.m.
Posted by T Heller at 11/7/07 12:34 p.m.
"Wild_willy futiely attempts to regain some credibility by pouncing on what very likely was a typing error of someone else: "He bytches {sic} and yaps about Sound Transit supposedly being "too generous" to its employees by offering a "whopping" "10% matching 401(k) contribution" and tries to claim that this is supposedly "far more generous than what the private sector would provide."
"Let's see now...he could have left off a '0' before the '%'. Or, he could have meant the upper limit of matching contributions, like 'up to 10% of your annual compensation' (that's pretty liberal policy, is it not?)"
"So, Wild_willy, why don't you seek some clarification before going off on one of your rants? Oh, that's right -- that would require too much research on your part. That would be too much work. And it might require you to be a bit more humble when engaging others. Apparently, that's not like you."
Here is some clarification for you.
I was mistaken on the amount I could contribute and the amount that PEMCO paid to match my contribution.
Here is the accurate and correct information.
It is taken directly from the PEMCO website.
Feel free to rant and rave at PEMCO, if you have a "problem" with the accuracy of their figures.
Employment
PEMCO Insurance, School Employees Credit Union of Washington, EvergreenBank, PEMCO Corporation, and Pemco Technologies form an alliance of companies dedicated to the same vision helping responsible people achieve, protect, and share their financial dreams. Robert J. Handy was the originator of the shared values that hold our alliance of companies together today. Handy founded School Employees Credit Union of Washington and PEMCO Insurance and was instrumental in EvergreenBank's charter.
Here, you can find employment opportunities at all of the alliance companies. Each company offers excellent benefits, which include:
* a 200% match on your 401(k) up to 6% of your salary
* competitive salaries
* medical, dental, disability and life insurance plans
* a friendly, professional work environment
* the opportunity to work at a place of integrity,- where customer service still means something.
www.pemco.com/employment/index.asp
NOW: Please direct your attention to the bolded line above -- the one which reads as follows:
* a 200% match on your 401(k) up to 6% of your salary
What this means is, if I contributed up to 6% of my gross pay to my 401(k), PEMCO would contribute $2.00 into my 401(k) for every $1.00 that "I" contributed.
This means, therefore, that if I contributed 6% of my gross salary, PEMCO would effectively contribute another 12%.
This made the effective total contribution to my 401(k) balance, a grand total of 18% of my gross pay.
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#283945
Posted by squarehead67 at 11/7/07 1:19 p.m.
Truly amazing to me. So many of you think the solution to congestion is simply to through money at it…….sad.
We have the gas tax…..the Nickel tax…the 9.5cent gas tax……and you all wanted prop 1?
Prop 1 was a smoke screen for light rail…nothing for congestion.
How about we get tough with our representatives and demand they be accountable for the Billions we already give them. Come on people think.
Stream line the permit process and lighten up environmental impact studies might be a start……
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#283950
Posted by diehardTRANSITadvocate at 11/7/07 1:21 p.m.
Hawk 5000, perhaps following I-5 would make sense, where possible. I am not for turning Metro 101 into Light Rail, it is too challenging. Now perhaps have any South Line follow I-5 from where SR509 would have met I-5. Use that project to help it get to I-5. I am not sure if people would go for two modes sharing the corridor, but I-405 Light Rail and using the Eastside Rail Line for Commuter Rail are not mutually exclusive, especially with the Eastside Rail line branching a little to the east from Bellevue, while I-405 goes to the west meeting I-5 at Lynwood.
Now as for the Sierra Club, I wonder, have they looked into this situation, or is it just cyclical and seasonal. It is a photo I took of Mt. Ranier in August as I was flying to my brother's wedding(It was an Alaska Airlines 737-900 that I was on, btw):
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c62/RanierBusrider/Mt.Ranier8132007.jpg
Proud Army Wife:
I like the idea of maybe trying the German system when it comes to the drivers license. I probably would not pass it, although I bet there are other drivers on our roads that probably should not have passed but the license examiner decided to let them pass. They do provide the other modes of transportation though, and they are effective in Germany, I noticed that they have interesting types of rail vehicles for all applications, and that is a good thing. Although some say Diesel is bad, light Diesel Multiple Units can work on some lines where electrification is not justified. San Diego and Austin are about to start using those. Now San Diego is not abandoning the Electric Light Rail system, this is a project for a different entity(but still under the framework of San Diego Council of Governments regional planning), the North County Transportation District. The Oceanside-Escondido Sprinter will connect with COASTER commuter rail to San Diego and Metrolink to Los Angeles at Oceanside, as well as Amtrak California's Pacific Surfliner. Without the services those three agencies provide on the Surf Line, who knows how much further I-5 should be widened there.
I read Al Runte's book Allies of the Earth, and it is interesting. He did a few chapters on Europe, but it was mostly on the special relationships that the railroads and the environment once had.(The railroads pushed for preserving Yellowstone and a few other areas as National Parks, but it was not just environmental and conservation aspects, they saw the tourist money) He had an interesting story that he had from riding an InterCity train in Germany. He was talking with a German over how it seemed that they had the Autobahns, but a rail system that worked. The German said she had visited the US, and noticed that you cannot get anwyhere without driving or flying. Runte asked about the Autobahn/InterCity Rail enigma. The response? Not all Germans drive. I am not sure if this was the same Al Runte that ran for Mayor, and later City Council. Although in the primary, I voted for him this time. /
As for HOV lanes, the merge can be avoided by Direct Access Ramps, some of them are already on-line at Bellevue, Eastgate, and Federal Way.
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#283951
Posted by southender at 11/7/07 1:21 p.m.
Just a small reality check here.
It's still broken, and needs fixing.
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#283953
Posted by coryt5000 at 11/7/07 1:23 p.m.
Yes, that's exactly right. That's how it SHOULD HAVE been done. That's why Vancouver, B.C. has a wondrous Skytrain system. And we don't.
Yeah thats why its costs 40 dollars to buy a case of beer in Vancouver, It costs 15 dollars to go eat out, and the housing costs are astronomical, Vancouver is one of the most heavily taxes cities in the world its like trying to live Tokyo.
There is really no reason to keep arguing about light rail because guess what its OVER, DONE, FINISHED!
You lost!
The next matter of business is the viaduct which should be heating up in the coming months, see you then if you already have moved to Berkley!
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#283956
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 1:24 p.m.
Posted by jrscline at 11/7/07 12:51 p.m.
"LOL... Wild_willy, you're frothing at the mouth. Never seen anyone so enthusiastic about spending other peoples' money. You must have had a financial stake in Prop. 1 getting passed, eh?"
No, I have a human-interest stake in wanting to leave a better world and a better city to my kids after I am gone.
However, it's looking more and more like the best solution for my kids will be to relocate them to Vancouver, B.C. There they will be able to get a fine, high-quality education -- probably better than what they could obtain here, and certainly for less money out-of-pocket.
(U.S. Army recruiters have openly mentioned that they would love to obtain recruits from Canada, because the people there are better educated than Americans on average).
They will also be able to avail themselves of a high-quality and expanding mass-transit system. Unlike here, Vancouver, BC does transit systems the right way -- they ram them through, with no public vote on it at all. This is the reason why Vancouver, B.C. has now had a mass-transit heavy-rail system (SkyTrain) for roughly twenty-two years (it opened in time for Expo '86), while Seattle still does not have even a shadow of an equivalent.
Incidentally, SkyTrain is on track to achieve a record 60 million boardings per year.
"I just moved here from Florida...."
Well, have a nice flight back. And don't let the screen door hit you in the butt on the way out. Happy landings!
"...and my main observation is 1) that Seattlites think the rest of Washington State revolves around them,"
That's because it DOES.
There's not much in the way of employment prospects throughout the rest of the state, unless you like growing cows or counting trees.
"2) that as a whole, the state is already taxed to death"
Anyone from Florida would probably feel the same way.
Florida, after all, is the state where you can declare bankruptcy and still keep a multi-million dollar mansion for yourself. Says a lot about that state's values, it do.
"3) I feel sorry for the kids who'll have to make tough choices in future when the tax base can no longer support the extragavant spending of the well-intentioned Politburo."
Don't bother. That's what usually marks the difference between Seattleites and people from other places - people here are usually willing to make financial sacrifices in order to safeguard the fine quality of life that we have here, and which places like Florida sorely lack.
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#283964
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 1:29 p.m.
"Economic reality will prevail and the WSDOT will mandate that a bigger and better "Super Viaduct" be built to handle the inevitable increasing traffic on SR99 and foster economic growth."
ROTFLMAO!!!!!
"As if".
Here is a more-likely scenario:
The environmental community (which, by the way, is huge in Washington State) will come together to send down to a massive defeat ANY attempt to rebuild the viaduct that does NOT provide funding for rail trainsit.
End of story.
And incidentally - the Viaduct cannot be "expanded" at all, in any way shape or form, because there is now a fully developed city around it, and no property owner is gtoing to be interested in having their property seized in order to build yet another ugly, stupid, greenhouse gas-contributing, wasteful freeway.
Perhaps you need to go back and look at the history of what happened when the state tried, repeatedly, to widen Interstate 520.
The property owners around the bridge spent about 7 bucks to file a lawsuit.
And they succeeded in tying the state up in court for years.
Millions of dollars in legal fees later, the State finally conceded defeat.
Again - End of Story.
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#283967
Posted by diehardTRANSITadvocate at 11/7/07 1:31 p.m.
The system is broke, and maybe the landscaped lids for SR520 should go. Although there is one thing forgotten by the people that oppose that. The Arboretum will be taken apart even more by an 8-10 lane alternative. Then one supporter for that alternative, the former state senator from Mercer Island, still holds out hope for completing the Thompson Expressway. It was destruction of the Arboretum that was the last straw on that. Now the property values south of the Arboretum are going up, making it prohibitively expensive. ALthough months ago on the Dave Ross Show, he(Former State Senator Horn) suggested it would be a tunnel.
Now maybe on the Transit side, follow the Utah example and apply it to SOUNDER, maybe at the expense of South LINK(for now), maybe not. FInd out what it will take to buy an easement on the BNSF main, and put in their own track. In the case of UTA, FrontRunner will be able to run on a bus, maybe even Light-Rail-style frequency. The construction portion worked pretty well, FrontRunner starts service next year. 4 new Light Rail lines to follow within a few years, but they are tossing BRT supporters a bone. Now are they going wild with a FrontRunner that would head off to the Golden Spike for tourists? Sorry, that part of the original Transcontinental Line was ripped up during a Line Relocation in 1942.
Most places that are pushing COngestion Pricing already have the transit in place.
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#283969
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 1:34 p.m.
"Stream line the permit process and lighten up environmental impact studies might be a start……"
Why?
So we could make it "easier" for developers to bulldoze and pave more environmentally sensitive and fragile areas?
Pave over more wetlands?
Kill or drive off more natural wildlife?
Plant more ugly cookie-cutter-style identical $400,000 zero-lot line townhomes into the ground?
Block more peoples' views?
Create more isolated subdivisions out in the middle of nowehere, so that developers can turn around and make huge profits and then demand that the taxpayers should pay for the roads connecting their suburban sprawl developments to the rest of humanity?
The Hell with that.....
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#283971
Posted by markcd at 11/7/07 1:34 p.m.
T Heller, while I can certainly see your point and would agree that in a perfect world it would be nice to have places like Northgate turn into mini-downtowns, I don't know that it's realistically possible. Right now, the biggest concentration of jobs is downtown. Given that many of the companies downtown don't want to have the cost of breaking leases, much less build new buildings in places like Northgate, Bothell, etc. and have their employees spread out, I don't see that situation changing anytime soon.
So, what do we do to address the floods of people that go into downtown Seattle and downtown Bellevue every day? Either we start building massive "affordable" housing units downtown so people no longer have to commute (good luck with that), or we work on ways to move those people into these commercial centers in a more efficient way. Rather than re-inventing the wheel or forcing lifestyle/behavioral changes, why not just expand what we already have and make it easier for people to use?
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#283972
Posted by RoloBeast at 11/7/07 1:35 p.m.
I don't know about you folks, but I love sitting in traffic; spend 45-60 minutes travelling 12-15 miles on the freeway, suck on fumes from the car in front of me for an hour, whine and moan about traffic, watch as my car goes from 28 mpg to 17 mpg.
But hey this is Washington, we want, want, want.... But heaven forbid if we have to pay for it now. Much rather pay for it later when prices go up.
Don't be surprised if Boeing elects to build their next plane elsewhere out of state because voters did nothing to improve Washington's transportation issues.
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#283973
Posted by Quintyx at 11/7/07 1:35 p.m.
5 year moratorium on new construction in the outlying areas sounds like a good fix. OR lots of tolls.
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#283974
Posted by hawk5000 at 11/7/07 1:37 p.m.
Wild_Willy, my comments about consensus where not directed at prop 1 but at you and your attitude. It is obvious you think your opinion is extremely important, just thought you might like to know you are making your self sound like and arrogant, intolerant, a-hole. People don’t care weather you are correct, they just like to watch you turn red in the face and throw a tantrum.
This is not a socialist or communist country so we wont have to worry about hippie Gestapo like you cramming anything down our collective throats.
“That is the way that transit systems are built and managed in other countries, and clearly they seem to be doing a much, much better job of it than we are, because they actually get things built.”
Have you considered moving to one of these countries that you like so much more than this one? Need help packing?
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#283977
Posted by nullbull at 11/7/07 1:39 p.m.
I just moved here from Florida
It shows.
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#283983
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 1:44 p.m.
"This is not a socialist or communist country so we wont have to worry about hippie Gestapo like you cramming anything down our collective throats."
No, you'll just have to worry about spending an ever-increasing amount of your life sitting in traffic, inhaling other peoples' exhaust fumes, contributing to global warming, despoiling your quality of life, and paying ever-larger and larger amounts of money for increasingly scarce fuel.
And since you seem to prefer that alternative, hey - knock yourself out!
I'm eventually not even going to *own* a car. Therefore, it's not going to be "my" problem to have to worry about.
"Have you considered moving to one of these countries that you like so much more than this one? Need help packing?"
Yes, actually, I have, thanks. And yes, I might need some help packing. :-)
I already own, oh, 9 or 10 income properties. In Vancouver, B.C.
I gross about $105,000 CDN a year off them.
That's about $115,000 (US) a year at the present exchange rate.
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#283990
Posted by VinceInSeattle at 11/7/07 1:49 p.m.
As we debate transportation, I wonder if the powers-that-be realize why there's such a lack of faith in their "planning." Let's list a few unfathomable decisions:
1. Closure of the bus tunnel to replace the rails and modify the platforms. This was just, I guess, incompetence. The rails were installed in the first place to be immediately ready for light rail; the expense and disruption to correct their deficiencies was significant.
2. Pac Hwy S from SeaTac to Federal Way has been entirely rebuilt in recent years, with medians, sidewalks, and HOV lanes. I assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that ST was going to use this route for light rail. Tear up the roadway, rebuild at great expense, then tear it up again and rebuild it at great expense?
3. I thought the I-90 express lanes were built for light rail, but then I hear that they would have to be closed, scraped, and rebuilt because of weight issues. Meanwhile light rail is already funded to within a mile of the 520 bridge, which will soon be replaced. Why not use a new 520 as the light rail bridge? Maybe there are good reasons but I don't know what they are.
4. The Renton-Snohomish rail corridor. Yeah, it's not at the center of downtown Bellevue or Kirkland and needs a replacement for the Wilburton tunnel. But it's close, it has rails, minimal land acquisition costs, much cheaper than new tunnels through Bellevue.
The overall picture is that transportation improvements are entirely uncoordinated and way more expensive than they have to be. We need a new direction.
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#283991
Posted by nullbull at 11/7/07 1:49 p.m.
Look, everyone who has moved here is welcome. Please bring your influence and your attitudes from other places. Add it to ours.
But please, please do not tell us what is wrong with our state after just arriving. There was a whole series of events that lead to Prop 1 (starting in the early 90s) which you may or may not have been here to witness. Most folks new to the area see a tax hike tromping on their dreams of moving "OUT" west. "Out" meaning away from everything else they used to know. The reality is we have problems with traffic and city planning and state rivalries and taxes here just like in any other place, and I'm sorry if it doesn't fit with any pre-conceived notion of what Washington State and the Puget Sound Area should be. But those of us who have grown up, lived, and worked here for generations have some valuable input as well. Perhaps more valuable than someone who just moved here and is already passing judgment on an entire region.
Honestly, welcome. But a little humility and recognition of what and who was already here when you arrived would be appreciated.
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#283993
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 1:52 p.m.
Posted by coryt5000 at 11/7/07 1:23 p.m.
"Yeah thats why its costs 40 dollars to buy a case of beer in Vancouver,"
Sorry, I don't drink beer. So, quite frankly I couldn't give a rats' patoot what beer costs there.
Of course, beer there has a much higher alcohol content than beer here has, so I wouldn't have to drink very much of it to get a good buzz anyway.
"It costs 15 dollars to go eat out...."
Don't worry, I'm sure you can find something on the "dollar menu" ay Mickey D's, or stuff yourself even fatter over at the Royal Fork Buffet, you Big Spender you.
"...and the housing costs are astronomical"
Housing costs normally do go up in cities that are perceived to have a very, very high quality of life and where people actually "want" to live.
But hey, don't worry - I'm sure that you won't have any trouble finding a nice, inexpensive little place down in Rat City ooops I mean "White Center". Say hi to the gang-bangers, too, while you're at it. But, hey - it's cheaper!! So, no worries!
"Vancouver is one of the most heavily taxes cities in the world its like trying to live Tokyo."
And it's got a far higher quality of life than most other cities on Earth -- which, incidentally, is why lots and lots of people still want to move there.
Vancouver, B.C. is New York City -- but with a much better transit system, much nicer views, a 24-hour-a-day urban lifestyle, and with much less crime.
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#283998
Posted by BrianinSeattle at 11/7/07 1:55 p.m.
Lets do some math here from the proposed ST2 Plan
.006 percent increase in Sales Tax. Even at worst case scenario where an average income of 45,000 dollars spends all of their earned money on goods that have sales taxes(which is highly unlikely) that amounts to an extra 270 dollars a year
A point .008 MVET, assume everyone has a 20,000 dollar car(again obviously not the case but just a starting point, equals an extra 160 dollars a year
So a total of 430 dollars a year would have gone to that.
Now take forcasted rises in the price of gasoline and compare if current futures market holds at NYMEX.com,which is a .15 cent/gallon increase from now in April of 2008. Worst case scenario gas goes to 4 dollars a gallon which is about a .70 cent increase from what some stations around Seattle are selling now. The following are also assuming people fill up once a week. Not everyone does but there are enough that do.
.15 x 15 gallon tank x52 weeks= 117 extra dollars a year
.30 x 15 gallon tank x52 weeks= 234
.45 x 15 gallon tank x52 weeks= 351
.70 x 15 gallon tank x52 weeeks=546 dollars a year
It doesnt really take much of a gas price rise to exceed the amount saved by voting it down to basically trade it in by spending it at the pump. And what do we get for voting it down. Absolutly nothing other than the current status quo.
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#283999
Posted by RoloBeast at 11/7/07 1:55 p.m.
Isn't prostitution legal in Vancouver B.C. as well?
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#284002
Posted by RoloBeast at 11/7/07 1:57 p.m.
and drinking age is 19 and weed is legal?
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#284005
Posted by nullbull at 11/7/07 2:00 p.m.
Brian - You can use all the numbers you want, but while anti-tax reactionaries can always tell you how much things will COST, they rarely if ever tell you how much something is WORTH.
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#284011
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 2:05 p.m.
VinceInSeattle,
RE:
"The overall picture is that transportation improvements are entirely uncoordinated and way more expensive than they have to be. We need a new direction."
The reason that transit improvements are indeed uncoordinated is quite simply because there is no one, single, over-arching government entity in control of and in charge of developing transportation alternatives -- of ALL kinds -- for the REGION AS A WHOLE.
Instead, what we have had, for many years and decades, are separate, squabbling, feuding, competing little fiefdoms and kingdoms.
Metro.
King County.
Snohomish County.
Pierce County.
City of Seattle.
City bus lines that end abruptly at the boundaries of neighboring cities.
Transit systems that are not designed to integrate with each other or cross geographic or political boundaries.
And the one constant, the one consistent theme that all of them share in common, is this:
Absolutely NOBODY wants to have to pay one thin dime for "somebody else's" transit system. Nor does anyone seemingly express any willingness to surrender even a scintilla of control to any government entity that might, just might, be better equipped to look at the larger picture and address the needs of the region as a whole.
That's what the RTID was intended to remedy.
And, not surprisingly, that is precisely why the nut-jobs - who:
(a) hate paying taxes, ANY taxes, and
(b) hate the idea of any government entity having any power to make decisions that they don't necessarily approve of or agree with,
..are trying so hard to kill the entire RTID concept, not to mention de-funding Sound Transit and killing regional rail transit.
The only thing they will ever accept or seemingly agree on, is "MORE freeways, MORE freeways, MORE freeways for ME and for MY CAR".
Unfortunately, for THEM, that is no longer a reasonable or realistic alternative.
We cannot build our way out of this problem anymore. We cannot continue constructing more freeways, because:
(a) It's not a viable solution; building freeways DOES NOT "reduce" congestion, it CREATES MORE of it.
(b) There is no statewide consensus on the need for more roads, nor is there ANY consensus on how to pay for them.
(c) The Puget Sound region is already filled to saturation point with roads and freeways. There simply is no more room to build or expand freeways. The region is fully built out.
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#284015
Posted by BrianinSeattle at 11/7/07 2:11 p.m.
Yeah, I know, I just decided to quantify it in the forums because no one ever breaks it out based on hard figures anymore. They just argue in general terms and vague responses.
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#284017
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 2:13 p.m.
RoloBeast,
"Isn't prostitution legal in Vancouver B.C. as well?"
Technically it's not "legal". However, in PRACTICE, it is TOLERATED to the point where it is basically legal. There are girls working the streets, in plain sight, in broad daylight, about two blocks from a police station in the Downtown Eastside neighborhood. The City of Vancouver basically (and, in my opinion, wisely) realized that prostitution was never going to "go away", and that it was a waste of taxpayer resources to chase grown men and women around for having consensual sex, so they essentially designated a specific, commercially zoned area to be the new "red light district". It's still technically illegal, but in practice, it's tolerated and generally ignored unless it becomes a problem, which it generally hasn't.
By keeping it technically illegal, the police still retain the legal right to arrest working girls who try to work in the middle of residential neighborhoods or who cause problems for others. And they still do exercise that right on occasion. Just not very often.
"and weed is legal?"
Well, once again, technically it's not "legal". But it's "tolerated". The police will still go after known dealers, but they tend to leave individual users alone - they've wisely realized that it really isn't worth their time and effort, or the taxpayers' money, to go after recreational users.
"and drinking age is 19?"
Yes.
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#284020
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 2:16 p.m.
Rolobeast,
"Don't be surprised if Boeing elects to build their next plane elsewhere out of state because voters did nothing to improve Washington's transportation issues."
I agree wholeheartedly with you.
Boeing has made their position loud and clear and plain on this issue, on more than one occasion. They have real problems with the continuing and ongoing traffic congestion problems that exist in the Puget Sound region.
Of course, Tim Eyman's response was "Who cares what Boeing thinks?"
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#284021
Posted by checkReality at 11/7/07 2:17 p.m.
Oh, and janza1, just a quick fact check. The Seahawks stadium was approved by the majority of voters the first time.
janza1, you got it mostly right. But, Uh, a slight contextual correction to keep that one in perspective: It was voted in by a tiny fraction of the voters, because it was the only item on the ballot in a special election bought and paid for by Paul Allen, in the month of Feburary, during a big rainstorm no less.... It WAS voted down the first time.
And the monorail was voted down, NOT solely because it did not go to West Seattle after the lame attempts to shorten the line because of the lame attempts to cover up the true costs. In that respect, ST2 and RTID had company.
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#284026
Posted by jazna1 at 11/7/07 2:22 p.m.
Looking at the comments here, it makes me said to observe that our "public discourse" has deteriorated to name-calling and insults. There is an issue, the taxpayers need to think about the best overall solution and what we can afford. It is in our common interest to work together. It's not "us vs. them" because the situation affects us all. We each have our personal viewpoint and a right to that viewpoint and insulting people with an opposing viewpoint does not contribute to the discussion. (I expect to be insulted for my comment.)
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#284029
Posted by Ted Fleming at 11/7/07 2:27 p.m.
"It was voted in by a tiny fraction of the voters, because it was the only item on the ballot in a special election bought and paid for by Paul Allen, in the month of Feburary, during a big rainstorm no less.... It WAS voted down the first time."
If I recall, the Seahawks stadium was voted for in a single election, it didn't take two elections.
Perhaps you are thinking of the Mariners attempts at a ballpark. The first election was voted down, then luckily cooler heads prevailed and the beautiful ballpark was built.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/football/258306_stadium04.html
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#284030
Posted by hoary at 11/7/07 2:29 p.m.
Wow. Can you say David v Goliath? Who's getting fired on the 'Yes' side for losing to a fractured, underfunded campaign? Ouch. Guess mo' money doens't always win, yeesh.
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#284034
Posted by gfs5541 at 11/7/07 2:33 p.m.
All I can say is whatever. I'm buying a car first and a GPS system that gets traffic reports second.
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#284037
Posted by bobiandany at 11/7/07 2:37 p.m.
I dont know if anyone realizes that this would have paid for itself in the long run. I work from home but still voted yes. This was more than repaving a road, it was installing a major long term infrastructure. This is a necessity in places like New York and Chicago AND they still have terrible traffic. Just think as the population continues to grow around here what will happen without a widespread/efficient transit system(and buses are not the answer). Seattle's traffic will be by far the worst in the country. This project will continue to get more expensive the longer we put it off.
In the long term, if the traffic becomes unbearable, we may see people start leaving the city/state all together for cities that have realiable public transportation??? May seem far fetched but I would not doubt it. Many of the residents dont have deep/long ties to this state and will cut and run if they ever have to. Some may cheer this, but trust me, this is a very bad problem when you start losing young talent and residents. Then it's bye-bye home values. Seattle is in a position of power right now and is completely squandering it.
Happy commuting!
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#284043
Posted by VinceInSeattle at 11/7/07 2:41 p.m.
Wild_willy, RTID was NOT intended to remedy the uncoordinated transportation planning in this region. It is not an agency - it is a committee of poo-bahs with limited staff. I assume all its projects would be engineered by WADOT and construction management would be through WADOT. It would not have had any authority at all over ST, Metro, WADOT, or they myriad other agencies with a hand in planning, building, and operating roads or transit. If you're looking for coordinated approaches to transportation planning, RTID would have made things more complex, not simpler. It was entirely a political creation, and its proposal reflected the log-rolling necessary to come to agreement among the designated politicians who were involved in it.
checkReality, I think you need to check reality about the Seahawks stadium. I remember only one public vote. Paul Allen did pay for the election, as well as spending many millions to blow smoke up the butts of soccer families and others (remember "world class soccer stadium"?). Also, as I recall, the vote was in June, not February, and it was the only issue on the ballot. If anyone knows differently and can cite a source, I'll accept it.
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#284045
Posted by coryt5000 at 11/7/07 2:45 p.m.
City bus lines?
Wild Willy what are you talking about
You have metro, community transit, Pierce transit, and sound transit.
Its actually county by county,
furthermore if you take the bus you would notice that Community transit which serves Snohomish county, Sound Transit primarily for the eastside, and Metro king county all operate in downtown Seattle, and downtown Bellevue, brining in riders in from their outlaying counties.
Further more to argue Vancouver has a better transit system than NYC is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. This statements speaks volumes of your ignorance toward transit systems.
Having lived in NYC (the bronx) for 4 years went to college there. I can tell you the transit system in NYC is a genius masterpiece. It has the 3rd most ridership in the world, behind Tokyo and Moscow at 1.850 billion riders annually.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_systems_by_annual_passenger_rides
The reason for this is because there are 9 million people living in a geographical space of 469 sq miles. Which amounts to 27000 people per sq mile. Plus theres 18 million people in the metro area which justifies the use of commuter trains like the Long Island Rail Road and the Metro North.
Contrast that to Seattle and its metro area,
Seattle which has 6,500 people per square mile with a metro area of over 50 miles with only 3 million people.
Further more NYC only had 500 homicides last year which is down from over 2500 in the early 1990's.
Infact it just got rated one of the safest big cities in America.
Been to East Vancouver Lately??
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#284047
Posted by squarehead67 at 11/7/07 2:46 p.m.
Why?
So we could make it "easier" for developers to bulldoze and pave more environmentally sensitive and fragile areas?
Pave over more wetlands?
Kill or drive off more natural wildlife?
Plant more ugly cookie-cutter-style identical $400,000 zero-lot line townhomes into the ground?
Block more peoples' views?
Create more isolated subdivisions out in the middle of nowehere, so that developers can turn around and make huge profits and then demand that the taxpayers should pay for the roads connecting their suburban sprawl developments to the rest of humanity?
The Hell with that.....
LOL…..Where did I say Eliminate the process……Stream Line it. If you knew just how much permit fees cost (Cost us…) you would start to see the light…..
P.S. I agree…people, stop buying Cookie Cutter homes with no yards…
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#284049
Posted by checkReality at 11/7/07 2:47 p.m.
If I recall, the Seahawks stadium was voted for in a single election, it didn't take two elections...
You are correct Ted. My other statements are still accurate. Paul Allen had to wait for the State Supreme Court to clear the way first. The legal opposition to public bond financing for private interests (aka Mariner's stadium), had to be overcome before the election could be possible.
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#284061
Posted by T Heller at 11/7/07 3:16 p.m.
Wild_Willy writes: "..if you have a "problem" with the accuracy of their figures..."
I don't have a problem with their figures, I had a problem with your rant about someone else's contribution. Methinks you ejaculated prematurely.
But this still leaves unanswered the level of ST's contributions to its employees and how that compares to ordinary Joes, either in the public sector (say Metro or City of Seattle) or in the private sector. I must say PEMCO's seems *extraordinarily* generous. Do you disagree?
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#284062
Posted by Lump at 11/7/07 3:22 p.m.
With oil rapidly approaching $100 per barrel (thanks GWB) there is not much need for more roads.
No, it's thanks to the enviro nuts and the loons that keep us from drilling for our own oil but are will to let China and Russia drill of the US coastline.
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#284076
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 3:44 p.m.
Posted by VinceInSeattle at 11/7/07 2:41 p.m.
"Wild_willy, RTID was NOT intended to remedy the uncoordinated transportation planning in this region. It is not an agency - it is a committee of poo-bahs with limited staff."
Hogwash. The RTID WAS intended to remedy the uncoordinated transportation planning in this region. That's what the "RT" stands for - REGIONAL Transit. As in, for the ENTIRE REGION, rather than being dedicated to one tiny area that *thinks* it's autonomous.
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#284078
Posted by kbarrow at 11/7/07 3:47 p.m.
"Lump"? There isn't enough oil in our land to make one bit of difference on this cost. Keep dreaming. God did not gift this great nation with loads of oil.
The fact is output is controlled by the people who have it and can wield it. 'member enron and how easy it was for them to manipulate energy output? We "environuts" as you say want to limit their power by using alternative methods of energy and lowering consumption. You want to believe that there is some miracualous oil well on our soil able to feed the needs of all our people? And which one is the nut? Be logical.
With that said, I did not vote for that package because it is just too expensive and I am already having a hard enough time living here. There is no way I could afford that kind of increase, and then another increase for the viaduct as well. When a "nat a dirty word" liberal such as I is saying "no" to increased taxes, you know something is up. You can't keep asking for taxes and have the income keep staying the same without a bit of a backlash.
And I look at it this way - I am one of the willing folks out there that would gladly use transit, but when it takes my bus 2 hours to get somewhere that my car can do in 30 minutes - I think they aren't trying hard enough to make transit options truly viable. Rather than wait for the traffic to get that bad where 2 hours seems 'ok' communte time will not work either. They need to come up with some real TRANSIT solutions in order to get people off the road.
There is a lot of fat and waste in our state govt. They will spend millions on projects and then change course. I think they really need to start looking inwards for some of this before asking for more blood from us. Or, they need to just get rid of this system and go to an income tax like Oregon does.
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#284086
Posted by T Heller at 11/7/07 3:52 p.m.
markcd looks downward & shuffles his feet, thinking there's no way out of this dilemna: "Given that many of the companies downtown don't want (...) [to] have their employees spread out,..."
Like they're NOT spread out today? Make me laugh!!
You and others need to view the challenge properly: it's not about alleviating congestion or pumping ever more people into downtown everyday so those companies don't have to recognize the ENORMOUS cost they otherwise impose upon the region's taxpayers. But that's the self-serving 'problem statement' downtown interests want you to buy into.
(Someone earlier suggested the leaders have failed to enforce Smart Growth policies by neglecting to charge suburban subdivisions & new homeowners for the cost of freeway expansions into Seattle. But it's not *residential* development that should bear the cost of major capacity expansions, particularly light rail to downtown. It's the commercial development downtown that should be assessed for that cost; *that's* the land and *they're* the properties that reap the vast majority of benefit from light rail. (It's instructive to contemplate the economics -the marginal cost, if you will- of pumping one additional worker to downtown via Sound Transit's programs. It illustrates the rent-seeking behavior that downtown interests have engaged in, putting the public's pocketbook on the line for the sake of their out-sized benefit. If impact fees for ST's 'regional transit' were applied to new downtown office development like those applied to suburban residential development for new school capacity, the impact fee would total well over $100,000 per new worker workspace (i.e. per each ~250 sq ft cubicle in a new downtown office building). This reveals the true cost of providing greater access to downtown through ST's programs, rail and bus. And that just reflects the cost of their *current* Phase I projects - it doesn't include the ST2 program that went down with Prop. 1.)
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No, the proper objective isn't moving more people to & fro faster & more reliably. The proper objective is more along the lines of 'what can be done to improve the daily quality of engaging in life for the greatest share of our population?' I gotta believe that $157 billion over fifty years should be capable of serving more than 2% or so of the populace. At the very least, we should *demand* that the daily lives of more people than that are significantly improved. Prop. 1 failed miserably on that score.
But THAT is the challenge. Mustering public resources to develop a more cost-effective way of delivering what people need daily. That includes a cost-effective arrangement arrangement of how jobs, housing, etc are distributed across the region's terrain (i.e. effective for the private individual, at a responsible & reasonable cost to the public fisc).
Again, I gotta believe more than 2% of the region can be effectively served for $157 billion over fifty years. You can't do that when you think the problem is pumping ever more people into downtown. Your thinking has to change.
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#284090
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 3:58 p.m.
Posted by coryt5000 at 11/7/07 2:45 p.m.
City bus lines? Wild Willy what are you talking about. You have metro, community transit, Pierce transit, and sound transit. Its actually county by county,
A perfect example of the "Fractured Fairy Tales" system we have here that poses as "transit". Three different systems, none of them integrated with each other, none of them designed or intended to seamlessly feed commuters from one system or jurisdiction to another.
Metro Transit is a joke, and a bad one at that. It claims to be a "county" bus system, but it's really still focused on downtown Seattle and the few outlying districts in reach of downtown. It's still blindly and stupidly focused on trying to find new and different ways to convey people to downtown Seattle, completely ignoring the fact that the world and Seattle have changed since 1985 and that downtown Seattle is no longer the only major employment center in the region and that people increasingly are traveling further and further to their jobs and crossing county lines to do so.
If I were to get on the SkyTrain in Surrey, B.C. with the intention of coming in to work in downtown Vancouver, I would be there in under 45 minutes - 18 hours a day - 7 days a week.
If I were to try to commute to downtown Seattle from, say, Federal Way or Puyallup, it would probably take me three separate buses, 2-3 separate transfers, waiting time for each bus... and about 3 hours in total, each way.
"Further more to argue Vancouver has a better transit system than NYC is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. This statements speaks volumes of your ignorance toward transit systems."
Vancouver, B.C. DOES have an excellent transit system, and for its size and population IT IS INDEED better than New York City's -- it is newer, cleaner, quieter, more modern, with better technology.
New York City developed an excellent mass-transit system over 100 years ago, it's called the subway. NYC has done little to nothing to improve on it since that time.
"Having lived in NYC (the bronx) for 4 years went to college there. I can tell you the transit system in NYC is a genius masterpiece. It has the 3rd most ridership in the world, behind Tokyo and Moscow at 1.850 billion riders annually."
That's because it was built ONE HUNDRED-ODD YEARS AGO by people who DIDN'T sit back and whine and go "It costs too much, it's too expensive, whaaaaaa!!!".
It was built by people of vision and altruism.
None of which is has been in evidence in Seattle since the early 1960s.
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#284091
Posted by kbarrow at 11/7/07 4:02 p.m.
To odb:
"and as you sit in traffic, try to fight off the "shoulda, woulda, coulda" reflex."
As I sit in traffic, I will be reassured that my vote NO will not make this one bit better. Do you know why? BECAUSE THEY SAID SO.
When they scale this package down a bit and increase the transit portion and put it up for a vote - t will pass. You will have to THANK US for the savings to your pocket book.
You people must not be from Seattle who voted for it. You still have faith in your elected officials! Don't worry, keep living here and you will learn that there is NO END to the tax increases and you will see no real benefit to any of them, other than to keep these idiots on the gravy train. If there were any good candidates opposing these folks - I would vote them ALL OUT. Why can't they get any Federal funding for this stuff? Why is it all on our backs?
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#284092
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 4:02 p.m.
"he reason for this is because there are 9 million people living in a geographical space of 469 sq miles. Which amounts to 27000 people per sq mile. Plus theres 18 million people in the metro area which justifies the use of commuter trains like the Long Island Rail Road and the Metro North."
But New York City DIDN'T HAVE A POPULATION OF OVER 9 MILLION PEOPLE LIVING IN A GEOGRAPHICAL SPACE OF 469 SQ. MILES back when they MADE THE DECISION TO BUILD THE SUBWAY.
They built it anyway, expensive though it was, because they had a vision of what their city would become somedsy - NOT because they needed it AT THE TIME. THEY DIDN'T need it as much at the time. They built it for the FUTURE New York City, not for the New York City they were living in at the time.
Like I said - forward thinking and vision.
A pity you don't have any of those things.
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#284094
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 4:05 p.m.
Posted by T Heller at 11/7/07 3:16 p.m.
"I don't have a problem with their figures, I had a problem with your rant about someone else's contribution. Methinks you ejaculated prematurely."
Methinks you need to go into the bathroom with the Playboy magazine and take care of your little "problem", you obviously have a somewhat unhealthy "fixation" on your mind and you need to flush it out.
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#284096
Posted by coryt5000 at 11/7/07 4:09 p.m.
If Seattle ever grows to 9 million people the end of the world will be near from over population. Thats forward thinking and vision.
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#284099
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 4:13 p.m.
Coryt5000,
"Further more NYC only had 500 homicides last year which is down from over 2500 in the early 1990's.
Infact it just got rated one of the safest big cities in America. Been to East Vancouver Lately??"
Yeah, I have, and it's STILL far, far safer than any American large city.
Seattle? Safe? Anybody remember the Capital Massacre where a guy from montana just came into a house and murdered a bunch of teens with an assault rifle? Oh yeah, real safe.
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#284100
Posted by softwarewiz at 11/7/07 4:14 p.m.
WW sez: "If I were to try to commute to downtown Seattle from, say, Federal Way or Puyallup, it would probably take me three separate buses, 2-3 separate transfers, waiting time for each bus... and about 3 hours in total, each way."
ST Commuter Rail runs five trains from Puyallup in the weekday mornings to DT Seattle from 5:12AM to 7:32AM. They arrive between 6:00AM and 8:20AM, so the trip is less than an hour ONE-WAY.
ST Express Bus #577 runs Federal Way to DT Seattle with about a 40-minute travel time ONE-WAY. In the mornings into Downtown Seattle a 577 comes along every 15-30 minutes.
A co-worker rides transit (bus+train+vanpool) from Olympia to Renton every day and he doesn't spend 2-3 hours ONE-WAY.
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#284102
Posted by coryt5000 at 11/7/07 4:16 p.m.
All Vancouver has is high rise condos for miles. Yeah great looking city nice culture to the neighborhoods. Its people like Wild Willy that want to destroy the nature of the Pacific Northwest by trying to turn it into all the "world class" cities by erecting ugly condos and high density living all over the place. If Prop one had of passed the neighborhoods of Roosevelt, etc. would have been decimated by developers coming in tearing down all the old houses that give this city some culture and erecting high rise condos near the light rail line.
Oh well too bad it DIDN'T PASS and luckily this is not going to happen!
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#284104
Posted by coryt5000 at 11/7/07 4:20 p.m.
Once Again your ignorance is astonishing,
In 2007 so far Seattle has 25 murders 7 of which occurred in that massacre of Escasty taking ravers, so take away that one horrible night and you have 18 murders thus far throughout the year, WAY WAY below the national average.
You take one event and blow it out of Proportion.
I bet you have been to East Vancouver so you can go buy and shoot up heroin in the streets and then hop on your beloved sky train and ride it around for hours on end...
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#284105
Posted by markcd at 11/7/07 4:20 p.m.
So, T Heller, help me walk down this path a little further. Are you suggesting that places like Microsoft, Boeing, WaMu, and Starbucks (Fortune 500 companies with thousands of people in the company headquarters in this area) should build dozens, if not hundreds, of mini-headquarters to eliminate the need to have their employees commute? What if they say no, should we tax the heck out of them until they bend to our will or leave town?
I'd love it if your utopia could be achieved where everyone could live, work, and play within a 1 mile radius. It'd save me an hour each way on the bus everyday. I just don't see how in reality it could ever happen without crushing business regulation or even more massive government involvement/subsidy.
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#284110
Posted by martinocortez at 11/7/07 4:24 p.m.
Nothing makes me more sad and cranky then when I realize how little people know what is going on around them. Folks, the link to the UW is fully funded and construction is due to start around 2009. It takes almost eight years for a tunnel boring machine to make its way from the bus tunnel to the UW and back. As a 28 year old, I'll be 37 when it is completed in 2016. I find that very, very depressing.
I want every person who reads this to do the math in their head and figure out how old they will be before they can take the light rail to the UW. Now, if it takes 10 years to go to the UW, if Prop 1 passed, how old will you be before you can take the light rail to Northgate or Bellevue? I'd wager I'd be around 40 years old...
Now comes the scary part. Prop 1 failed. How old will you be before you can take the light rail to your imagined destination now? If you imagine yourself in a grave before you get there, think of how old your kids will be instead. Scary, huh?
My biggest issue with Prop 1 was that it wasn't enough. In engineering it is always "You can have Low Cost, High Quality, Short Time. Pick Two." We should be picking "High Quality", "Extremely Short Time" and "To Heck with the Cost".
We should be building the UW link at an accelerated rate - throw four tunnel boring machines under there, not one. We should be working 24/7 on the link to Bellevue. And why no love for White Center and West Seattle? I dont own a car and I still have to visit my friends and family you know.
Guys. I dont care how theoretically corrup AGENCY_X is*. They could spend half the money away on mafia payouts for all I can care. This kind of stuff ain't cheap and we need it now more than ever. We can't stop stalling on this stuff.
* I challenge anybody to find me an agency that spills more of its guts on its website than Sound Transit. I have yet to find a more transparent governmental agency in our state than Sound Transit. They may have blew it in 2000, but it is 2007 and they've come a long way.
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#284115
Posted by coryt5000 at 11/7/07 4:28 p.m.
It is 2007 and luckily Sound Transit is finished.
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#284117
Posted by DrShort at 11/7/07 4:31 p.m.
Anyone who wants to take mass transit between UW and downtown has multiple bus routes to choose from. Sure light rail might be a few minutes faster, but the added
costs are substaintal.
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#284123
Posted by trthtpwr at 11/7/07 4:35 p.m.
I wanted to comment on how short-sighted the voters of the Puget Sound Region are - but then again, who can blame them. Would you trust local and state politicians with more funds when there has been virtually no leadership on these issues for the last twenty+ years? The monorail fiasco (thanks to Nickels and his stooges on the council) is still fresh in the minds of many. Are we behind in planning and building public transportation infrastructure? Indeed, about 20-30+ years. And, it won't get any better anytime soon. Yet you cannot expect the public to support these huge initiatives without first laying the groundwork and demonstrating that you have comprehensive plan and the leadership to get there.
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#284132
Posted by martinocortez at 11/7/07 4:44 p.m.
Dr Short, have you ever taken any of the 70's? On a good day, it will take 10 minutes on a 7X express bus, but woe is you to travel at rush out where it will take 30 minutes in surface street traffic to get to the bus tunnel.
Had Seattle been forward thinking and my parents generation voted on the light rail propositions put forth to them, I would have been wisked from downtown to the UW in 4 minutes with at most a 10 minute interval between trains. Yup. Four minutes plus a max of ten minutes waiting day or night regardless of traffic.
Assumining I dont move to a place with better public transporation, it will be my kids who get to enjoy that commute. I'll be stuck on the bus in traffic lights until I'm 37 and who knows if I'll ever get to go to the Target in Northgate as well?
The monorail was a ugly looking cement pipe dream. The world needs more people watching the Simpsons.
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#284138
Posted by SaneCitizen at 11/7/07 4:48 p.m.
People to the WA DOT: “Build roads, relieve congestion and stop with the social engineering!”
People drive cars. That’s how Americans prefer to travel. It works best for us. Stop trying to force us to ride on buses or trains or car-pool.
BUILD ROADS AND EXPAND EXISTING ONES. That’s your job.
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#284141
Posted by DrShort at 11/7/07 4:49 p.m.
If we used that $18 billion to incent businesses to allow (or require) a percentage of workers to telecommute a day or two per week, you'd see an immediate reduction in traffic.
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#284145
Posted by votingtaxpayer at 11/7/07 4:54 p.m.
Wild_Willy,
Some of us work and don't have the time to sit at the keyboard and fire off insults to people with whom we disagree.
Regarding the responsibility of government, if there is no transportation infrastructure (roads, trains, buses, etc.), then how are emergency services to reach their destination? How is commerce to happen thus creating jobs? How is food to get to the grocery stores? Or medicine to the hospitals?
Health care and social welfare programs can only be adequately addressed if the means by which the help can reach those in need is sound which means 'transportation'.
Why do you spin the word 'transportation' to mean a benefit only to someone that wants to live in the suburbs? I never said that, but for some reason you are.
If anything, we need a very thorough light rail system to reach distant locations and are supported by buses at the stations for the destinations local to the train stations.
I would gladly vote for that system as I have been on rail systems across Europe and Japan and they are great. I actually have two Suica cards for the JR system (http://www.jreast.co.jp/suica/) that I use when I commute in Tokyo.
As with anything, rail is good if it is done right. So far it has not been done right since it has not been established in a location to benefit those that are paying for it. For example, the first links should have been the Renton to Bellevue and Lynnwood to Seattle commutes since these are the current locations of protracted congestion. The people paying for the light rail will see results and believe in the system thus willingly support further expansion. Instead we have Seattle to the airport which will benefit a very small percentage of the taxpayers being asked to fund it.
As for the 401(k) comment, ST employees are required to put 10% of their pay towards a 401(k) and ST will match this amount of money. I have never seen, nor heard of anything so generous (your PEMCO is the first I have hear of anything so good). The best I have seen myself was when I was at Boeing where the company would match 50% up to 8% of my paycheck (i.e., I put in 8% and Boeing would add an additional 4%). That is pretty sweet and I have yet to see anything else like that at all the companies at which I have worked since that time.
Because of this, I have to wonder why my taxes are going to fund a retirement system that is more generous than anything I have seen or heard of since *and* I am being asked to pay more to an organization that has consistently provided a service of limited value and effectiveness since it does not remove the riders from the traffic they are trying to avoid and, more often than not, penalizes them with commute times that are significantly longer than if they drove themselves.
For these reasons I voted NO since the money is already there and the way it is being spent is the issue.
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#284147
Posted by martinocortez at 11/7/07 4:57 p.m.
"People drive cars. That’s how Americans prefer to travel. It works best for us. Stop trying to force us to ride on buses or trains or car-pool."
Only because you have grown up without being exposed to other ways. Americans prefer cars because that is all they know. Our culture and society took a huge nose dive after the introduction of cheap cars post WWII. They have made us fat, lazy and paraniod. Many of us live in relative isolation thanks to our car-centric urban design. It is pathetic that many of us cannot walk to a local grocery store or stumble home from a local tavern. How can we claim to be civilized when most of us cannot even walk to a good park?
Cars are the most uncivilized things we have in our world. Aliens must look down at us and laugh at us humans and our pathetic cars. If you think cars are the end-all be-all of life, I've got news for you pal.
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#284153
Posted by VinceInSeattle at 11/7/07 5:02 p.m.
Wild_willy, I don't want to get in an argument with you over RTID, but go to their web site at RTID.org. RTID is governed by 22 county council members from the 3 counties, chaired by the WADOT Sec of Transportation. Total funding to date is $3.5 million. This is not an operational agency - to be generous, it is a planning/coordinating committee. To be cyncical, it is a political log-rolling exercise intended to make sure everyone gets their "fair share." Does anyone believe that the light rail line from Tacoma to SeaTac would have been proposed if Julia Patterson had not been a member? And so on.
Tom Heller talks the most sense on these issues, in this and many other Sound Offs. Sound Transit is a meeting of the minds between self-styled enviros, who hate cars as a reflex, and downtown developers, who need new capacity to import more workers to support more development.
There's a great deal more we could do in moving jobs closer to people. For example, every big bank and retail operation has scads of people doing the same jobs at every location. Systematically transferring employees to closer branches might make a significant difference.
Further developing alternative city centers could also make a big difference. Why not place some of this biotech in Everett? Why not zone downtown Everett for some mid to high rise residential? Bellevue's come a long way - how about Kent and Federal Way? Federal Way now has infrastructure and zoning in place for high rises - let's encourage development there instead of downtown Seattle. Think outside the box (or outside the isthmus).
And give buses a real chance. I traveled from Northgate Transit Center to downtown in 10 minutes each way yesterday. Light rail will NEVER beat that. Use congestion pricing or dedicating HOV lanes to keep them moving at highway speeds; use advanced payment systems to get rid of cash collections. Use signal pre-emption. Develop software so that people can plan a trip, find their bus, get a realistic time when the next bus will be at their stop (and most of the infrastructure to do that is in place). $1 billion for buses would have more impact than $18 billion for light rail.
As for people like those profiled a few days ago who live in Ballard and commute to jobs in Kirkland and Redmond - I just don't know what to say. And others who want a bigger house for the money and are willing to live in Graham or Cle Elum or Lake Stevens and commute 25 or 50 miles each way. I'm sure they like their homes and their jobs. Both have value and I'm not sure we, as a society, want to tell them they have to give up one or the other. But I'm not sure we, as a society, have the responsibility to foster their commute at highway speeds either. Our choice, as a family, is that one of us works at home and the other takes the bus downtown from Maple Leaf. I think a reasonable commute along those lines is all society owes us.
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#284157
Posted by Furious Coder at 11/7/07 5:05 p.m.
martinocortez, finally someone who gets it. I'd be 50 by the time the ST2 project to Microsoft Main Campus was finished, but I still voted for it. Why? Because the only people who can afford to buy houses around where I live in Seattle are MS employees. Shouldn't they have easy transit options in the future? I was willing and happy to pay the taxes, and I know that what ST put forth was a comprehensive, realistic plan. I know realism when I see it, and this was a good, well thought out plan.
But instead, we have people who think everyone should bike 20 miles to work (I've done 7 miles one way, and that's an effort, even in my good shape). We have people who want untested, unproven, large scale Personal Transports (I've seen the reality of public systems and the safety measures always require 3 times bigger systems than the idealized plastic shells). We have people who don't want to pay tolls (and apparantly their time sitting in traffic is worth nothing). We have people who don't want to sit next to strangers on trains (but will shop around strangers in malls and markets, and work with them every day). We have people who want to take cars off the roads and reduce unnecessary trips (forgetting that sometimes, you need to run to the pharmacy at 11PM because your kid or wife is sick). We have people who think everyone should just move closer to work (forgetting that means two income family people must both work in the same town, and that skillsets and employers change around twice a decade for many people).
It's all ridiculous, and it's all unrealistic. Everyone thinks that other people should change, forgetting how hard it is to change yourself. We needed to take drastic engineering and development measures NOW, and we put them off, like putting off the advice of a doctor to buy a $200 exercise bike to keep our blood flowing well, when all evidence points to the fact that recovering from the inevitable stroke is going to cost far more later and be much more painful.
I just listened to genius video game designer Will Wright speak today, and I think everyone should go out and pick up a copy of SimCity. Just like in the game, yes, the taxes hurt a little, but if you don't lay down a good transit mix and pay the cost early, Seattle will look just like a ruined city in that game: gridlocked, constrained, and economically destroyed.
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#284158
Posted by srs162 at 11/7/07 5:06 p.m.
Why can't they get any Federal funding for this stuff? Why is it all on our backs?
Kbarrow, please point me to the federal money tree. While you're raking up dollar bills like fallen leaves, please tell me where one-fourth of my paycheck goes every two weeks!
Ladies and gentlemen, please witness Exhibit A for why we need a state income tax. If you never actually see the money, it's as if it was never actually your money to begin with.
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#284160
Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 5:07 p.m.
If I were to try to commute to downtown Seattle from, say, Federal Way or Puyallup, it would probably take me three separate buses, 2-3 separate transfers, waiting time for each bus... and about 3 hours in total, each way.
"ST Commuter Rail runs five trains from Puyallup in the weekday mornings to DT Seattle from 5:12AM to 7:32AM. They arrive between 6:00AM and 8:20AM, so the trip is less than an hour ONE-WAY."
"ST Express Bus #577 runs Federal Way to DT Seattle with about a 40-minute travel time ONE-WAY. In the mornings into Downtown Seattle a 577 comes along every 15-30 minutes."
And precisely how long do you think that trip will end up taking you, if Looney-Toons like Coryt5000 succeed in de-funding Sound Transit?
You DO realize that the ONLY reason that people are able to get from Federal Way to Seattle in less than an hour, is precisely BECAUSE Sound Transit DOES, CURRENTLY exist?
You DO realize that if Looney-Toons like Coryt5000 get their way, all of those fast-commuter buses and heavy-rail trains WILL be dismantled - right?
Has it ever occurred to you precisely WHO you should be thanking for the FACT that the heavy-rail commuter train even exists to carry people into Seattle, so they don't HAVE to all end up on the freeway in their cars?
Do you even know wht the "ST" in those bus route numbers stands for?
Here's an hint: "Sound Transit".
And what's the name ofthat commuter heavy-rail train, again? The "Sounder", isn't it?
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#284165
Posted by rambo_the_dog at 11/7/07 5:09 p.m.
Last year I predicted this would fail - and was laughed at.
I also predicted the new gas tax hike would fail because of the rising price of fuel would make people drive less and now since the state collects less tax revenuethey are crying about not being able to pay for the "Watch your Nickle Work" tax increase.
My newest prediction...The state will declare another "emergency" and tax the living "you-know-what" out of us again to implement this boondoggle idea of regional transit.
The laughable thing in all of this is that in the liberals utopian dream we'd all be riding mass transit and the tax revenue from gas sales would be so low - they'd start raising fares to make up for revenue short falls and not being able to fix roads that are left...!
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#284166
Posted by WOW ! at 11/7/07 5:09 p.m.
Fear not supporters of the now failed Prop 1 - they are now going to appoint a "super-commission" to come up with an alternative to Prop 1. The tried and failed Seattle fall back is about to be unveiled - why look how much success they had with the Viaduct. By the way what is the plan with the Viaduct ? I love how Ron threw the Gov under the bus ( get it ? the bus, hahahaha) "Gov, we couldn't find our _ss with two hands so you tell us what to do. By the way, if your plan goes south I am going to throw you under the bus again and claim I had doubts about your plan"
What a spot Ron has put the Gov in - got to wonder, does Ron work for Dino Rossi ?
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#284167
Posted by trthtpwr at 11/7/07 5:10 p.m.
Good observations VTP - I used my Suica card to commute into Tokyo this morning! What difference it makes living in a place that had the vision to invest in public transportation. We will be in Seattle next month and I dread the driving and congestion. Still waiting for the ST links to be completed...
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#284169
Posted by Mud Baby at 11/7/07 5:10 p.m.
martinocortez, I'm not all that bummed because (1) I already took more rides than I can possibly remember on the NYC subways in my present life, and at the molluscan speed at which we're addressing our transportation infrastructure issues here in Pugetopolis, I figure that in my next incarnation (or maybe the one after that), I'll be riding Sound Transit to my heart's content.
Seriously folks, after Bush nukes the Iranian oil fields there it won't be long before we'll all feel nostalgic about the halcyon days when gas was less than $10 per gallon. At that point everyone will be screaming for more light rail lines and bike trails.
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#284173
Posted by martinocortez at 11/7/07 5:12 p.m.
"downtown developers, who need new capacity to import more workers to support more development."
Maybe people like living in urban areas because they are safer? Maybe people like them because they dont need to drive to the grocery store or the bank or the post office? Living in denser areas might seem more expensive, but the higher price in land/rent is offset by lower transit costs (I have spent only $30 on gas in two months).
Should I pay a bazillion dollars to build light rail to help subsidize some dude who wants to work and play in my city and live in Bumbleskunk? I dont even want the viaduct in my back yard just like somebody else doesn't want a toxic waste dump in their back yard. Both are ugly and screw up our views.
Maybe I'll stop voting on light rail or any tranist. I like my city and I dont want you tourists mucking it all up for me... you guys can sit in your little boxes all day trying to get here. Right?
Good times.
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#284177
Posted by coryt5000 at 11/7/07 5:16 p.m.
I support the expansion of transit in the form of buses, contrary to the ignorance Wild Willy spews out, Metro currently has 300,000 average riders daily thats why its ranked in the top 10 of transit systems in the country. It will continue to grow and expand now that money won't be diverted to funding sound transit.
once again,
300,000 riders daily...
I guess metro really isn't as bleak as some would like to have you believe.
I and the majority of people who just defeated this bill are all right wing looneys in wild willys world,
Some How he has convinced himself the Pacfic Northwest is a hot bed of Right Wing Nut cases LOL!Posted by allsburg at 11/7/07 5:16 p.m.
Absolutely hilarious: the measure "designed to unite transit and highway advocates" instead united transit opponents and road opponents.
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#284179
Posted by BrianinSeattle at 11/7/07 5:17 p.m.
This whole thing is a chicken and egg scenario. Ask the question to a lot of people "Would you prefer to be able to get around where you need to go without having to drive everywhere?" and I'll guarantee you almost 75-85 percent of people would say yes.
The reason most American's don't do this is because transit and rail in this country has been severely under funded for decades. Highways get 40 billion a year in federal money not counting state money on top of that. Airlines 14 billion. THE ENTIRE Budget of the Federal Transit Administration is 9 Billion dollars(Look it up at http://www.fta.dot.gov.), they are the ones that dole out grants to mass transit agencies for projects. That's why our politicians can't get tons of federal money for this project. Along with a rule change if i recall sometime back in the 80's or 90's that changed the max matching grant to only something like 50 percent of the project's cost instead of 80 percent. Amtrak's budget alone is only a paltry 1.3 Billion dollars.
Chronic underfunding and a decision back in the 30's-50's to rip out all streetcar systems is why rail transit isn't there anymore. Its not really because the average citizen doesn't really want it.
But than again, there's some people that think its all a big socialist plot to deprive people of their freedom to drive cars as if having a car is some god-given right. There are some noble reasons to discourage car use though
1. Reduce Air Pollution-noticing that brown haze that shows up more and more each summer around here?
2. Reduce Oil Imports, thus reducing the trade deficit which is currently causing the US Dollar to drop like a stone
3. Saving money on insurance, gas, maintenance,etc starts to add up even just in a year.
Anyways just my thoughts.
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#284186
Posted by coryt5000 at 11/7/07 5:21 p.m.
i starting to think Wild Willy is a new screen name, i have't seen him on any posts in all the threads prior to today. To all the people on here you have participated on these threads regarding this issue I am sure you would all know Soul Not Sold.
Where has he been today, no where to be found
Could Wild Willy be Soul Not Sold reincarnated hiding behind another screen name....
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#284190
Posted by martinocortez at 11/7/07 5:24 p.m.
"Chronic underfunding and a decision back in the 30's-50's to rip out all streetcar systems is why rail transit isn't there anymore."
My grandfather would use that as a reason why they should build light rail in Puget Sound in the 1970's. I'm sure he'd find it quite humourous that we are now busy rebuilding our streetcar system.
9 Billion ain't squat - that is a good find! That is only two four billion dollar viaduct tunnels. "Four Billion Dollar Viaduct Tunnels" make a great public works version of "this dam has enough cement in it to circle the globe four times", btw. When you hear some new about "Joe Blow's new bridge from Cuba to Florida will cost a whopping two billion" you just say "half a viaduct." The new space station costs 500 million they say? Pshaw, that is nothing because the viaduct is four billion!
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#284191
Posted by martinocortez at 11/7/07 5:26 p.m.
Er... SHOULD NOT... My grandfather would use that as a reason why they should NOT build light rail in Puget Sound in the 1970's.
"Those idiots tore out the street car back then. Why should we trust those idiots now?" he'd say.
Sorry...
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#284194
Posted by Ted Fleming at 11/7/07 5:29 p.m.
Here's a novel idea to fund a new 520 bridge. Tolls. They did it before, they can do it again. Have the people who use it pay for it.
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#284198
Posted by coryt5000 at 11/7/07 5:31 p.m.
Man you seem to be going through heroin withdrawls spewing your hatred at everyone and everything, whats the matter seattle's herion isn't potent enough for you, you should go back up to you beloved city of Vancouver take the sky train to East Vancouver and get that nice herion you seem to love so much.
You said you have kids...?
Jesus someone should call the Child Protective Service, a heroin addicted dad with so much hatred built up towards the world. Man I don't know what to tell you dude maybe go out and look at Lake Washington and Mt. Rainer, take a step back and just relax.
You keep that amount of hatred built up inside you all the time you'll be dead of heart attack in a couple of years, Talk about thinning the gene pool!
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#284212
Posted by VinceInSeattle at 11/7/07 5:50 p.m.
Wild willy, what a reign of error! No one's going to dismantle Sounder commuter rail. Is each daily trip still subsidized something like $100? I think Sounder missed all its goals for ridership, cost, and frequency of service. But now that it's up and running, it's not going anywhere. I've never ridden it, but I hear it's a nice ride. Was it worth $1 billion?
As for ST Express bus service, didn't you know that most of those routes were already being run by Metro? They bought new buses and re-named the routes. I've never seen an accounting of just how much new service was purchased with Sound Move, and which was simply displaced from existing routes. But Sound Transit didn't invent or pioneer most of these routes. Now, Sound Transit's takeover of the routes allowed Metro to reprogram its assets to other routes and that's a fine thing. But it's not the same thing.
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#284239
Posted by goodcop at 11/7/07 6:30 p.m.
I heard a solution touted once that seemed to make sense to me. It was a staggared work schedule for gov. employees. I work for the fed now and we have one for some of us. It works GREAT!! My commute from Lynnwood to work is about 25 minutes and that's through Seattle. If all gov. agencies went to something like that and encouraged private industry to do likewise it might actually make a difference. I also heard something about (I think it was ) I-705 as some sort of truck route. Not a bad idea either but, I don't know jack about that. Seems there are solutions or at least partial ones out there people just need to alter life a little.
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#284244
Posted by AksalaSeawolf at 11/7/07 6:40 p.m.
Not only have the brakes been put on.......The new brakes are drilled and vented.
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#284263
Posted by LoveYourViaduct at 11/7/07 7:14 p.m.
+++ Posted by coryt5000 at 11/7/07 9:43 a.m.
Where's Soul not Sold, and Marine Vet, and Love your Viaduct?
Could be hard for you to believe, but I'm not a single issue voter. I decided to delay the food fight here and post on a few other threads of interest. Not to worry, I knew you'd all be here when I got around to you.
You actually missed me? I'm touched. Seriously. Can't speak for the others, maybe they're outside enjoying our last dry day for a while.
This hopefully means Sound Transit is on the ropes
Sorry to pop your balloon, but this was one small battle in a mega-campaign - unlike the SMP, Sound Transit is here to stay. Interesting how Prop 1 got about 44% plus or minus, kinda like the Viaduct last spring. Amongst the four options - Pro, rail hater, pavement hater, and tax hater, I think it won a plurality - just as the Viaduct rebuild did last spring. As usual, it's all in the spin after the election as we wait for the marriages of convenience to disintegrate.
I left a few posts on the Prop 1 Analysis thread - too bad the P-I doesn't consolidate these threads somehow. Anyway, not to worry, I'm still ready to rebuild my favorite Viaduct as soon as possible. (Sorry, MV - you knew that was coming. Another relationship of convenience down the toilet.) See you later.
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#284264
Posted by spoook at 11/7/07 7:15 p.m.
Woohoo! All you saps will be sitting in your SOV's stuck in traffic until eternity and I won't have to pay taxes on a poorly managed expansion in a physical land mass that was not made for 3+ million people regardless of what transportation types are made available.
What we really need is for 2+ million of the sissy weather whiners from california and the like to return to where they came from.. only then will we have sane traffic.
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#284272
Posted by jrscline at 11/7/07 7:24 p.m.
In case it isn't already apparent, Wild_Willy is an idiot.
(Since he's as free and easy with the insults as he is with spending our money, I guess we can be "liberal" on the insults as well.)
I do so hope he manages to move to Canada. Then he'll be free to pay the 14% combined federal and provincial sales taxes, as well as having virtually no tax deductions from the going (high) tax rates there.
Since he loves hiking taxes so much, I think he should hike his butt right up to Vancouver! Go Willy go!
Oops, my husband is Canadian and he says "We don't want any more like you here." Guess it's Europe for you, buddy. Try Scandinavia... moron.
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#284273
Posted by LoveYourViaduct at 11/7/07 7:26 p.m.
+++ Posted by nullbull at 11/7/07 10:34 a.m.
I voted for Prop 1 because I think we need BOTH the roads AND the transit! Whoa! Shocker! I'm actually willing to pay for improvements to every kind of infrastructure because they have ALL been neglected for too long.
No shocker here, nb - you've got plenty of company. Just let the haters have their little party, and then we can start designing Prop 2. Contrary to the opinion of majority of posters here, it could be bigger than Prop 1.
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#284277
Posted by Curse of Arctos at 11/7/07 7:34 p.m.
FLOP 1 died the horrible death it deserved.....which begs the question, are the P-I endorsements becoming the new "curse of death"? or is the P-I editorial just proving to be incredibly out of touch with most Washingtonians?.......My guess is the latter.
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#284279
Posted by LoveYourViaduct at 11/7/07 7:36 p.m.
+++ Posted by Wild_Willy at 11/7/07 10:49 a.m.
WHAAAAAAAAAAA. Poor baby. Stop whining, little one. You have NO CLUE how LUCKY you are.
Wipe off your glasses, Willy. If you'd read my earlier posts, you'd know sarcasm when it hit you on the nose.
What's the deal, citing an article from 2005??? Combined with the weak dollar, gasoline in France is currently near $7 per gallon, and $8 in the Netherlands. Of course, both countries have massive public transit and socialized health insurance and beaucoup expensive freeway tolls. Seems like a good trade-off to me - I happen to think the Europeans are luckier than I am.
No sarcasm here. Seriously. Absolutely.
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#284280
Posted by truth squad at 11/7/07 7:41 p.m.
I was torn on how to vote on prop 1. I support the projects and would like to see both roads and rail
projects proceed. My vote against it was for the following reasons:
1 The state has misallocated too much money. If it has money for health care for Illegals then
it has money to put into this project without more taxes.
2 The projects always end up routed to neighborhoods with high crime and few who work.
The projects need to support commuting to work, must be safe and vandal free.
3 The taxes in the plan were not well conceived. It seemed to be designed to punish those who drive.
while I would like to be able to use the light rail to get to work, I realize many people will still have to
drive. Why should they be punished? This is where I disagree with the light rail proponents, I love
light rail but why pit it against cars? We need both!
4 The state has put too many obstacles in the way of efficient project planning, like endless environmental
studies, prevailing wage, sales tax on highway projects (to transfer transportation tax money to
general budget?)
5 The people selected to run the projects are so bad at project management that they are either incompetent or
deliberately trying to sink them financially.
6 Finally there is a Rail Corridor on the Eastside of lake Washington that is to be turned into a bike path. This
rail line should be the basis for commuter trains from Snohomish Co. to the Eastside employers. The fact that
this is not even being considered tells me that there is no concern about really building commuter rail by those
who say they support it.
7 To say there is a lack of trust in government in this state is an understatement.
Item 6 really gets me!
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#284288
Posted by LoveYourViaduct at 11/7/07 7:50 p.m.
+++ Posted by dpk at 11/7/07 11:11 a.m.
First, it was estimated this would have cost $12 average taxpayers per month, it's not just in addition to their gas purchases (since this was a sales tax on everything, not just a gas tax).
Understood. My point was that many people are already paying a lot of gas taxes, and by driving less (read: the train, not the slow lousy bus), they could easily save that amount in monthly gas taxes alone - and cover the expense of Prop 1.
Second, I have little sympathy for anyone that uses 4 gallons of gas a day to get to commute to and from work.
Understood also, but remember, if people can't afford to live where they work (read: Seattle), or if they need to work multiple jobs to make ends meet (like that woman who spent a week in the ditch a few weeks ago), how are they supposed to get to work if the bus schedule isn't compatible? Or, working two or more jobs, are they going to spend all their free time on a bus?
No. They will drive, and will buy enough gas to get them to work and back, maybe more than once per day. I don't use anywhere near that amount of gas myself, but I know people who do. That's the way our petroleum-based society is designed. And, judging by yesterday's election results, it will stay that way here for a while longer.
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#284290
Posted by T Heller at 11/7/07 7:51 p.m.
markcd asks: "I just don't see how in reality it could ever happen without crushing business regulation or even more massive government involvement/subsidy."
'Even more massive subsidy'? You mean more than the $100,000+ subsidy ST Phase I represents for downtown office cubicles? Geez, it's hard enough for me to swallow that level of subsidy, much less contemplate an even higher level. Talk about crushing!!
The economic activities of Microsoft, Starbucks, Washington Mutual etc are NOT place-bound. They don't have to, for instance, locate at the edge of a deep-water harbor to ship loads of wheat or steel to distant ports. They don't have to locate above a vein of silver or gold to extract its value.
All they need, at minimum, is for their workers to access their corporate networks, not even necessarily their office buildings. For the most part, they don't 'service' visitors or customers at their locations. WaMu's branches and Starbuck's cafes do that.
I'm not saying that certain groups of people don't get together to brainstorm or communicate/report to one another, but a great deal of their corporate work doesn't require EVERYONE to be ALTOGETHER in ONE office tower. Of course, corporate ego may find some satisfaction in putting a name on their building, but is corporate ego worth a $100,000+ per cubicle taxpayer subsidy?
And don't let the downtown property owners off the hook. They're the ones who capitalize, literally and figuratively, on the public subsidy that -thru ST's transformation of $ into persons per hour from outlying areas- provides accessibility to their properties, translating into market value they otherwise could not achieve.
The call for regional light rail rests on some rather dubious assumptions. A couple of them is that everything important can only take place downtown; all outlying areas must be subordinate to the 'needs' of downtown; that congestion is a problem only commuters face; that light rail only helps the little people; that changes in land use practices cannot substitute for transportation improvements; and downtown properties should be able to shake-down the entire region's taxpayers, while not paying a DIME for the benefit bestowed upon them.
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#284291
Posted by bchughes at 11/7/07 7:54 p.m.
Three Cheers for Conservative thinking!!! Let Seattle pay for its own traffic problems. The defeat of this measure was in part that other area's such as Highway 2 DESERVE attention NOW not years into the future as this measure would have dictated. There is more to traffic problems than the Metro Seattle area and rural voters are sick of being ignored. Gotta love it!!!
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#284293
Posted by LoveYourViaduct at 11/7/07 7:58 p.m.
+++ Posted by seasalt at 11/7/07 12:30 p.m.
Well, I voted "yes" in the end
Thanks for providing an example of a soft YES, seasalt - you had a lot of company. Another challenge for Prop 2 will be to win your vote again next time, and mine for that matter.
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#284306
Posted by Curse of Arctos at 11/7/07 8:16 p.m.
Posted by T Heller at 11/7/07 7:51 p.m.
"The economic activities of Microsoft, Starbucks, Washington Mutual etc are NOT place-bound...
All they need, at minimum, is for their workers to access their corporate networks, not even necessarily their office buildings. For the most part, they don't 'service' visitors or customers at their locations..."
*** Snip***
I guess this poster and Al Gore are the only two that believe Mr. Gore invented the internet...
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#284307
Posted by nullbull at 11/7/07 8:17 p.m.
Talk to you all in 4 months when the true cost of $100/barrel oil hits us. You will weep for another chance to fund transit.
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#284309
Posted by Sustainable Guy at 11/7/07 8:18 p.m.
Obviously the Washington state educational system has produced such intelligent people. Lets see here...it is almost 2008 and it takes some 5-7 years to build any kind of decent trans system adn so hmmm. 2008 + 7 years = 2013 andsupposedly our planet will have well over 11 billion people on it! OK then we can all simply look forward to walking around all the parked cars right??
Way to go you really smart idiots!!
I really like Fred Jarret's commonets today..."people like transit, People like roads, but people don't like taxes!!" What a billiant summary of Seattle! What a great politician!! I would like to see his math scores!!
IN the end it will all be wonderfull because we will get to see people starting to kill for commutes ie the bike murders.
Gas addiction is spreading faster than sars!!
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#284311
Posted by BrianinSeattle at 11/7/07 8:21 p.m.
BCHughes should do some research on how much rural counties get out of the gas tax vs urban ones. And yes Snohomish County is considered an urban county. What you would find with a little research is that rural counties get way more than their share of gas tax in terms of money allocated for projects than they pay into the system, and I'm glad it works that way, otherwise certain roads out in Walla Walla or some other eastern wa town would never get funded.
RTID was designed to avoid what you think is the problem. Seattle and the cities around it(thought of as one region by the rest of the state whether or not you think Monroe/Snohomish aren't considered part of the greater Seattle metro area)voted on something to tax THEMSELVES and no one else to fund specifically projects IN that area. Obviously it went down, but you are mistaken in how you think things are funded.
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#284315
Posted by LoveYourViaduct at 11/7/07 8:28 p.m.
Hey Willy, are you the former Willy Wonka?
By the way, as far as I'm concerned, we could raise the gas tax again here - again seriously - but it'll never fly in Oly.
I've spent quite a bit of time in Europe the past few years. That's probably influenced my thinking on public rapid transit. What's your excuse?
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#284325
Posted by LoveYourViaduct at 11/7/07 8:46 p.m.
+++ Posted by Curse of Arctos at 11/7/07 7:34 p.m.
are the P-I endorsements becoming the new "curse of death"?
The P-I claimed to endorse Prop 1, but it was a sham - they bandied the bogus numbers around as much as any of the opponents. They claimed to 'hold their nose' in their 'endorsement' editorial to try to equivocate and save a few subscribers (such as some Sierra Clubbers) who might have cancelled had the paper given the measure a meaningful boost.
The P-I exists to sell papers, and their endorsements are so influenced. You can see that fact reflected in their other endorsements too.
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#284343
Posted by parfait4congress08 at 11/7/07 9:10 p.m.
LoveYourViaduct... you are such an amusing character. I see you everywhere and you offer nothing but complaints but I know you have more inside you than that. I HAVE offered compromise as you have suggested before....
I said that IF the governing powers REALLY want to repair our roads and make traffic better then perhaps they shouldn't have grouped everything into one huge lump that it too difficult to swallow (think of a burger... all at once or a bite at a time. If they really wanted to have 50 miles more then maybe they should have had a mile of the train actually working before asking to do more. If you were having windows installed on the front of your house and the contractor removed all the windows and built lots of frames for the new ones but hadn't installed a single one.... would you want that contractor to begin installing more on the other side of the house?
I said if 520 needs repair and expansion (that most people can't use- especially if they are construction workers since they cannot always carpool and need to bring their tools with them. Not everyone carries just a briefcase) then formulate a plan and present it.... in other words, one bite at a time (back to the burger).
All I want is real solutions to real problems instead of the bickering and non-leadership we currently are experiencing. I am a leader my friend and I believe that if you actually ever contacted me to really discuss these matters you would find that I'm not such a bad guy. I have a wife and four children that are quite fond of me, I've trained many people of various races, sexes, nationalities and most have been very appreciative of my methodology, my skills and my desire to help them help themselves. I am passionate about my desire to fix what is wrong in government but I cannot do it alone. Yes, you and I will disagree about a few things but those things are probably beyond either of our control whether I'm elected or not (though others may lie about it) so I place those items in the bag of things beyond my control and seek to find common ground where we can work TOGETHER to improve things. Help me because I cannot do it alone. I need people just like you to recognize that WE THE PEOPLE have to pick up the power that we have set aside and let others usurp. America began with a tea party, invite me to speak at yours and let's change things together.
One last thing, if it seems that I am the king of run-on sentences... well, I may be but at least I didn't write the Prop 1 question.... did you actually read that thing? Sheesh.
http://parfait4congress.googlepages.com/home
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#284346
Posted by seasalt at 11/7/07 9:12 p.m.
Posted by LoveYourViaduct at 11/7/07 7:58 p.m.
Thanks for providing an example of a soft YES, seasalt - you had a lot of company. Another challenge for Prop 2 will be to win your vote again next time, and mine for that matter.
Yes, my yes was so soft it was positively squishy!
I am not surprised that it failed (it's what I expected) but I do feel kind of sad this evening about everyone heaving back to the drawing board.
Let's hope that this time we as a region can do a better job of tackling our transportation problems.
And FYI, I still want my little Jetson's air-car. Or a Back to the Future DeLorean that runs off of a few onion peels in its Mr. Fusion. Time travel not required. ;0)
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#284390
Posted by AGM-86B at 11/7/07 11:09 p.m.
This was voted no because there is plenty of $$ to fix our roads and people are tired of bending over for tax and spend gov. growth advocates. We, the people, just need someone with the brass nads as governor to cut our state gov back to pre-democrat levels. That massive amount of freed up capital will fund 520, the viaduct, massive metro lanes etc. etc. etc.
Pontificators - Please take note how short and to the point that was.
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#284395
Posted by stuckInTraffic at 11/7/07 11:52 p.m.
No point in fixing roads and planning for more traffic. Traffic is expected to decrease in 20 years even with more people. It's simple economics. Less gasoline means fewer cars on the road. Fewer cars on the road means less traffic. We'll obviously have less gasoline since almost all new net oil supplies will be from opec who have no need to meet our appetite for oil.
As the Saudi saying goes, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet airplane. His son will ride a camel."
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#284398
Posted by aelamiri at 11/8/07 12:01 a.m.
I would like to see a full audit of Sound Transit and its progress to see where it can become more efficient and cut cost. It'll also be nice to combine some of the redundant services between sound transit and country transit agencies to also cut cost. This would be step 1.
Step 2: Sound Transit needs to finish up what it promised. Your eyes shouldn't be bigger than what you can eat!
Step 3: Focus on smaller but more rapid projects to incrementally bring better transit to the region instead of doing these massive proposals that end up in cost overruns and endless taxation.
Also, there should be a public performance review of Sound Transit on yearly basis to see if they're doing what they promised and people should be help accountable.
Olympia & ST need to understand that us voters are not stupid. Don't think you're going to shove pork projects all over a proposal and stick it to the voter to pay for it. Proposition 1 was more of an insult to voters intelligence rather than a solution.
I say let's cut the political play and actually make meaningful, efficient and realistic plans.
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#284454
Posted by Iblis at 11/8/07 4:59 a.m.
"I've spent quite a bit of time in Europe the past few years. That's probably influenced my thinking on public rapid transit. What's your excuse?"
Hay viaduct... whens the last time you saw a Shopping Mall in Europe, 10 miles or more from ANY major population center??
The answer.. YOU DIDNT!!
Thats because Europe has built most of its stores around, near or in population centers encouraging folks to WALK to their services instead of drive....
BIG difference then here in America.. where EVERYTHING is automobile centric... and 10 miles away or more...
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#284456
Posted by Brian_Macster at 11/8/07 5:03 a.m.
Step 1 is already posted on Sound Transit's website as of 3-4 weeks ago.
Step 2: Take a drive along the line, you'll see the progress that has been made and what to expect come June 2009 or if you get lucky, ride one of the test trains in Spring/Summer 2008. We won't see anything happen on the University Link segment simply because the Tunnel Boring Machine can only dig 40 to 50 feet a day at most and it has 2 tunnels to bore...
Step 3: Sound Transit should have went for the smaller piece of the pie instead of the huge bite. They only should have seeked money for extending Link to Northgate Transit Center and Federal Way Transit Center which would be the main chunk of Link's ridership and revenue, especially on weekends since the train would stop at or near 3 popular malls.
That is part of the audit I do believe. ST also emails if your signed up for it, progress reports of their projects. I keep a steady eye on all of this and excluding the tunnel, look at it first hand of what they did and what they have accomplished.
This is also true but the voters also need to understand that what was voted yes in 2003 and 2005 are state-wide, not just "Seattle-Metro" projects. Both the 2003 Nickel projects and the 2005 Transportation are viewable on WSDOT's website under 'Projects' where anybody could find a wealth of information about where the money is going to and what project is allocated how much money.
Unfortunately the political play will happen in any City, State, Country. It'll happen in any Government office.. it's just a rule of history and the likely hood for it to stop is slim to none.
To take an example of a crumbling Transportation system, take a look at Amtrak vs. our International counterparts. There was a time in the early 1950-1960's when our trains ran 110mph-120mph before the Government stepped in. When Freight Railroads backed out of passenger rail service, the Government formed Amtrak and the FRA (Federal Railroad Administration) Overall train speeds throughout the Country decreased and increasing overall times to get to destinations.
Meanwhile as we slow down to 79-90mph throughout the United States in Europe as we commonly look to, was the first country to establish High-Speed Rail at 186mph. Their overall High Speed Rail network is 4,000 miles long and will be nearly 8,000 miles long by 2012. The newest TGV line hosts trains at 200mph, daily.
In Shanghai, China, they are the first to use the Germany 'Transrapid' Maglev system in commerical revenue service. A once hour trip by taxi or driving or 45 minutes by rail is now 8 minutes at 267mph.
The fastest train we have in the United States is the Acela in the Northeast Corridor at 150mph which is only good for 20 miles or so.
I really don't see the United States being anything more than independent on oil. To live a better quality of life and to get around easily, live in Europe. Most of your major cities are only 1-3 hours away. In 2008, you'll be able to go from Paris to Madrid in under 5 hours....a distance of 800 miles....
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#284633
Posted by coryt5000 at 11/8/07 9:07 a.m.
Brian Macaster,
You talk of high speed trains in Europe etc.
The population denisity in Europe greatly justifies the use of these high speed trains. Guess what the east coast seaboard, the major population densities, from Boston to DC has a very extensive rail network set up, with systems like amtrack's acela.
However in the Western United States when you have major cities 400-500, 600, 700 miles away from each other the most effective way to do transportation is through the use of airplanes and freeways.
Even if we had your 200mph train, would you or anyone else pay the 120 bucks to ride that from Seattle To San Fran, and it would take 7 hours to get there, or would you buy a plane ticket for 120 bucks and get there in 2 hours?
Trains don't make sense anywhere were the population densitys are Spread out such as Seattle to San Fran or to LA.
Thats why they don't exist anymore. Boston to NY is different as is Paris to Frankfurt.
Trains are an ancient technology, The 787 dreamliner is new technology... Airplanes or trains I believe the market has dictated which won that battle
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#284635
Posted by T Heller at 11/8/07 9:07 a.m.
Hey Brian -- you still writing on taxpayer's expense?
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#284650
Posted by coryt5000 at 11/8/07 9:16 a.m.
If you completely cut the huge astronomical government bailouts to Amtrack, it would not even come close to being able to survive against the airplane industry. The easiset way to get from point A to point B with the exception of the eastern seaboard is via an airplane not a train.
The airline industry is left to fight and make money for itself in a competitive marketplace, with the exception of 9/11. IF Amtrack was forced to do this it would be off line within a year.
Guess what, Our Airplane Network is what the highly subsidized train networks are to Europe.
I wonder if theres a soundoff somewhere in Europe where theres someone arguing that they should try and make their airplane system more like that of the United States, instead of continuing with their heavily non profitable subsidized train networks...
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#284693
Posted by equalibrium at 11/8/07 10:02 a.m.
Willy - I knew you wouldn't buy it. That's fine, just to get huffy puffy the next time some one says they don't believe in evolution. Even though there is all the proof in the world it still goes against some people's beliefs. We have the same thing going on here don't we? Someone calling basic economic principals stupid. It's fine, most liberals tend to ignore them because they are not in your doctrine. But it doesn't change the fact that I am right. When those safety measures are added to cars, people drive faster because they know they are safer. The result? More accidents. So all those numbers you're about to spew are tainted, as we don't know how many of those accidents were a result of the increased incentive to drive unsafely.
Also, i'm in your neighborhood RIGHT NOW, just driving as if I have the right to do so.
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#284814
Posted by Brian_Macster at 11/8/07 11:21 a.m.
T-Heller - I use the "taxpayer" expense daily. It's great that I can wait at a station or get on a train and surf the web the entire time. Gotta love it =) So does the other thousand plus people who use it and does work on board the train. Can't do that while sitting in traffic now can you? Nope.
And don't forget, the Airlines, on top of the taxes they have, also are government subsidizes.
And just FYI, there has been 6 airlines that have pulled out of destinations that the TGV and ICE trains service.
As for United States wide High Speed Rail, it would never work. High Speed rail from say Vancouver, BC to Portland or Eugene, Oregon, sure, why not?
California High Speed rail from the Bay Area to San Diego, sure, why not?
Improving the Northeast Corridor, even better.
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#284822
Posted by Brian_Macster at 11/8/07 11:28 a.m.
CoryT - And once again your very much wrong. All of the TGV and ICE lines see a broad return in their investment. The new TGV East (Est) will start earning revenue in 5 years.
Let's see the Airlines do that! Oh, that's right, you have to drive 30 to 60 minutes to the nearest Airport, wait 2-3 hours for security for that, sit on the tarmac for 30 to oh, 2-3 hours? Just for a 2 hour flight!
Meanwhile, I will sit, browse the internet, do my work, use my phone, while enjoying a T-Bone Steak, Wine, and Pasta, City Center to City Center at either 186 or 200mph.
No worries on getting stuck in long airport lines, taking a taxi from that airport in the middle of no where to the City Center... Train does it for me, faster, cleaner, and much, much more relaxing
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#285045
Posted by coryt5000 at 11/8/07 2:52 p.m.
Meanwhile I will sit eating T bone steak cruising happily through the valleys gazing off into the wonderful landscape free and happy on the choo choo train.....
blah blah blah
Thanks for sharing Brain Macster! LOL, its gives the rest of us a great insight into the mind of a rail supporter. Spoken like a true Utopian, You and Wolfowitz should would have a great conversation.
Thats all fine and dandy to have your certain fantasy's.
But back to reality when will you be actually doing that lets see most likely never,
Are you trying to argue Amtrack is not heavily subsidized? Are you trying to argue that if Amtrack was not one of the most subsidized organizations of the federal government that it would be able to survive against the airplane industry?
If you took away the federal funding from Amtrack and let it compete with the airlines it would be finished by years end.
Further more the amount of money the government pumps into Amtrack barley keeps the thing in business as it is, and you have some Utopian Pipe Dream that the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT is going to invest billions of dollars into a high speed rail network on the west coast??
Are you out of your mind?
Furthermore Amtack champions itself as the transportation for the middle class and lower income people. I lived in NYC for 4 four years, the cheapest way to get to all the other major eastcoast cities is not via train, or even airplanes but via cheap buses known as the china town buses, and other cheap bus services (not greyhound). A round trip ticket to DC for example is $30, On Amtrack that would be close to $200.
Oh yeah and what do these buses use the INTERSTATE SYSTEM!
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#285082
Posted by T Heller at 11/8/07 3:37 p.m.
coryt5000: it's spelled Amtrak.
Brian_Macster: I was gently picking on you, so to illustrate a point. You're not responsible for disproportionately draining the region's transportation tax dollar. I'm not blaming you -or those other thousand Sounder riders- for choosing the most attractive travel option (I *would* blame you if you made an irrational choice among those available to you.)
I blame those who lavished those monies in such a way that *one* person can receive such out-sized benefit. The so-called 'policy-makers'.
I'm a former Finance Director for the state ferries. It was an interesting experience. The level of ferry subsidy was most certainly an issue - but in the corridors of the legislature, not in our offices. However, I could not understand how our cross-sound commuter passenger fare worked out to be *less* than Metro's peak-hour two-zone fare (ie. coming in from outside the city limits). The 'level of service' on the ferries far exceeded that of bus service. One could not only be assured of finding a seat, you could buy breakfast, buy a newspaper and go to the washroom. Some riders would set their hair & apply cosmetics on the ride in. And the scenery was a vast improvement, too. But it wasn't my job to adequately price the service -- the legislature basically controlled such things. The fares were determined, for the most part, by how much money was in the kitty, not the value of the service.
(NB: I'm pretty sure ferry fares had eroded to the level of a *one-zone* Metro peak fare a decade after I left the ferries. Not sure about today's situation, but I'd wager it's pretty much the same situation. Nothing changes much in heavily-subsidized 'enterprise'.
That situation is pretty comparable to Sound Transit. They're floating on so much cash, they don't have to worry about their costs or how much of those costs the riders are asked to pick up.
I went before the ST Board several years ago and congratulated them on becoming, with Sounder, the new 'gold-medal' transportation subsidy purveyors, displacing the state ferries, which a few years earlier had experimented with passenger-only ferries and chose to discontinue them because per rider subsidies were in the $6 range.
The numbnuts running the ferries somehow thought running passenger-only vessels parallel to -and thereby in competition with- their auto ferries. All they did was layer on more cost, far in excess of whatever new ridership & revenue the passenger-only service generated. Really stupid. But, the legislature and then-Rep. Karen Schmidt (aka the fairy godmother) was able to create a program to meddle further into ferry operations -a never-ending temptation- and swing boat construction contracts to favored in-state boat builders. (This is another never-ending temptation; read the sordid history of the Issaquah-class ferries while you're riding into town. Google 'Marine Power & Equipment'. In case you're not aware, there are many similarities re: in-state construction of transportation equipment in the ST/Sounder story, e.g. rail coaches.)
The ST Board didn't understand my remarks about out-sized per rider operating subsidies (should I have been surprised?). Not even did ST's finance guy grasp that operating subsidies, if they grew beyond their forecasts, could quickly eat into moneys they planned to spend on capital outlays. But these folks had no experience dealing with such, so I might as well have been speaking in a foreign language. Plus, they had money oozing out of every pore, so why need they be on alert? It's just tax money - they don't have any 'skin' in the game. That's a worrisome arrangement - no self-correction mechanism. Not good public policy.
sidenote: Egad, I'm glad I just uninstalled Firefox 2.0 and Thunderbird 2.0 and restored their 1.5 predecessors. My system was really flaking out. For one, the system clock was losing time!! (I adjusted it at least eight times in the past five days.) Now I'm back where I want to be. And I've now disabled Automatic Updates.
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#285185
Posted by LoveYourViaduct at 11/8/07 5:46 p.m.
+++ Posted by parfait4congress08 at 11/7/07 9:10 p.m.
you offer nothing but complaints but I know you have more inside you than that.
Actually, I do a good deal of analysis in the hopes of stimulating intelligent debate. I also spend a great deal of time researching and presenting accurate information, facts and statistics - unlike a lot of other posters, including you.
I also have some experience in politics, which is clearly lacking in you. You really ought to think about taking a refresher course in Civics before you go out and embarrass yourself at the polls next year.
all at once or a bite at a time.
The anti side bandied the distorted 'all at once' numbers regularly. My 'bite at a time' for Prop 1 would have been about $180 per year, or a little more than my assessment for the Port of Seattle, which I think should be repealed. Either way, it's less than I pay for phone service.
if 520 needs repair and expansion
Check out the WSDOT website sometime. SR520 needs REPLACEMENT.
All I want is real solutions to real problems instead of the bickering and non-leadership we currently are experiencing.
Well, you had your chance with Prop 1, and like the Sierra Clubbed, you blew it.
I am a leader my friend
No, you're not. You're a poser, and you're not my friend.
at least I didn't write the Prop 1 question.... did you actually read that thing?
Yes. And if you had a problem with it, like I said, I don't think you're cut out for politics. Want to find out the hard way? Be my guest, it's a free country, but I'm not voting for you.
Have a nice campaign.
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#285199
Posted by LoveYourViaduct at 11/8/07 6:04 p.m.
Posted by Iblis at 11/8/07 4:59 a.m.
Hay viaduct... whens the last time you saw a Shopping Mall in Europe, 10 miles or more from ANY major population center??
True, Zones Industrielles are usually located on the previously-undeveloped edges of towns in France - similarly elsewhere in Europe.
Thats because Europe has built most of its stores around, near or in population centers encouraging folks to WALK to their services instead of drive....
That's not true in my experience, especially in France. The new commercial zones aren't pedestrian friendly. Everybody drives, and as a result, there are usually not even any sidewalks.
The frequent itinerant markets are often pedestrian-only zones - temporarily anyway - near the city/village center. But the malls are invading Europe. Thankfully no wallyworlds yet, but it's only a matter of time ...
BIG difference then here in America.. where EVERYTHING is automobile centric... and 10 miles away or more...
That difference is shrinking. France in particular is building beaucoup autoroutes - freeways. I think they're still adding to the TGV too, but I'm not sure. Anyway, their modern transportation infrastructure is in the process of putting America's to shame.
Lotta road tolls too - it's expected there, and expensive. Americans really do have a cush life that way, but you get the hardware you pay for. France pays for it, we don't, and the gap between their modern system and our decrepit one will only widen in the coming years.
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#285213
Posted by coryt5000 at 11/8/07 6:25 p.m.
Viaduct,
France's economy is also what you might call Stagnant. High taxes, gaurenteed work etc.
Thats why they elected Pro American Sarcozy, and not more of the same socialists who got them into their current economic mess.
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#285215
Posted by LoveYourViaduct at 11/8/07 6:27 p.m.
Hey Cory,
Not to give you indigestion tonight - whether you have a steak or not - but Sound Transit will be around for a while yet. Whether Bozo is accepted back to the flock with open arms is unknown, but with or without him, Prop 2 is in the works. As I mentioned on another thread, it may be bigger than Prop 1.
Something else that might cause you to reach for the Tums ... Remember last spring after the our favorite Viaduct advisory ballot, when the governor hinted that if a surface/transit option were to be selected, there would be more money available for the SR520 rebuild?
Well, that equation might work in reverse - meaning that the 520 project COULD raid the Viaduct account, leaving nothing left to replace that structure.
May be coincidence, but I seem to remember the Sierra Clubbed was big on surface/transit back then. Remember who else supported that option?
Ron Sims. Bozo himself.
And you've been questioning the company I've been keeping for the past few months??? Time to take a look around. Didn't see you on the 520 blog today, but you might want to keep an eye on that issue. Someone's going to suggest raiding the Viaduct piggy bank, and I'll bet you can guess as well as I who that someone might be.
As I said earlier, the Prop 1 defeat will turn out to be a pyrrhic victory for some. Now we'll see how the collateral damage shakes out.
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#285251
Posted by Organization Man at 11/8/07 7:16 p.m.
Is there any way we can link Eyman to Prop 1 so that the Bridge Court can overturn it?
Just asking.
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#285980
Posted by johnnycakes at 11/9/07 12:18 p.m.
Wild_Willy writes:
"If I were to try to commute to downtown Seattle from, say, Federal Way or Puyallup, it would probably take me three separate buses, 2-3 separate transfers, waiting time for each bus... and about 3 hours in total, each way."
My sister lives in Lynnwood. Her commute from downtown home is 45 minutes on a bad day.
I live in the Central District and work in Fremont. My commute home is 45 minutes on a *good* day.
Both of us take the bus.
I'm not arguing there aren't problems with transit in and around Seattle, but arguing that suburban connections are too slow completely misses the point.
Transportation
Wednesday, March 12, 2008
Prop 1 loses and PI readers comments
